These are my tentative personal goals (the last 12 are for the final city):
* No future history except for defense tests and Massilia route
* Very Hard difficulty
* No cheats
* Personal funds are not used (although may be collected)
* No festivals and no blessings
* Wolves are not "fenced"
* No mission posts
* Few engineer posts (maybe 2)
* Only trees can be deleted
* No requests are fulfilled (trolgu's idea)
* Culture 100
* Prosperity 100
* Grand insulae are the poorest houses
* There is at least one grand villa
* Gatehouses are only in external walls
* Shows in all entertainment venues at least part of the time
* Everyone is registered for tax
* Senate, governor palace, and best houses are close together
* Senate, markets, bathhouses, and fountains are upgraded
* A legionary fort is near every approach to the city
* All roads, including the Road to Rome, are connected
* People give best comments (such as "This city is fantastic!")
If these are a lot of trouble, some that I consider less important (such as "No mission posts") may be abandoned.

Future history was used in 2 ways. The tests of years ago showed that a lion defense could be good against Rome's troops, but I eventually decided to use just towers. Recently I did more tests (using Julius) to find an efficient tower arrangement, and found a good-looking one with 23 towers (although I'll probably add 1 or 2 more by the gatehouse at the entrance to the city). The other use of future history is knowing that the Massila trade route will open and its eventual quotas.

Rebel Lugdunum should run for many thousands of years. I'm concerned that at some point, multiple landslides and a Rome invasion will prevent caravans from entering for many months. Therefore, caravans won't go far from the Road to Rome, trading in the large eastern valley (where most of the warehouses will be).

The bulk of the food (wheat and meat) will be stored in granaries that aren't very far from the stairs to the farming plateau. The Reliable Market Long (Forced) Walker Technique without Gatehouses will supply most of the houses, complicated by separating the wheat/meat markets and the pottery/furniture/oil markets. The north tile of each pottery/furniture/oil market must be at least 40 tiles "as the crow flies" from the north tile of each granary. The north tile of each wheat/meat market must be at least 40 tiles "as the crow flies" from the north tile of the fruit granary and the pottery, furniture, oil, and wine warehouses.

The above technique assumes that market sellers will remain evenly spaced. I have seem them work properly (in Palace Peaks and No Clinic Capua) for a few decades, but that doesn't mean that they will work properly for thousands of years. We'll see.

The fruit granary, wine warehouse, and fruit/wine market will probably be on the south island. The few houses (probably 2) on the farming plateau will be supplied by a market that is close to wheat and meat granaries but is a long way by road (but not too far "as the crow flies") from pottery, furniture, and oil warehouses.

City health will be good, allowing a stable city with a modest number of ghosts to form with a populations that is a little above the requirement (5000).

Designing Rebel Lugdunum may take me a while.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 12-05-2020 @ 05:44 PM).]

Culture 100 takes too many employees, so will be reduced (perhaps to 90).

I forgot that a market buyer also acts as a trader. If built as suggested in reply #1, the farming plateau market buyer would go by lots of houses when it is getting a good, so is likely to run out of that good causing farming plateau houses to devolve. The only fix I see is to move pottery, furniture, and oil onto the plateau. An advantage is that more houses can be put on the plateau. Two disadvantages are the extra warehouses (which must be far enough "as the crow flies" from the wheat/meat markets) and preventing Massilia caravans from going there (so the final city won't sell pottery).

Some people won't be registered for tax. I expect that taxing everyone is doable, but would be a pain and doesn't seem to add much. (In contrast, having no forums might be fun.)

There shouldn't be any protestors, so that will be a goal, although Peace will reach 100 regardless.

Not all best houses will be close to the Senate and governor palace, but at least one will.

A few changes were made. The pottery/furniture/oil markets also supply wine. The fruit market also supplies wheat and meat (and all goods, which doesn't matter). The fruit/etc market and wine warehouse are in the eastern valley. All houses will have wine. Only villas will have coverage from multiple gods.

Most of the farming plateau has been designed, with 4 houses. I forgot that houses need 10 less desirability when elevated. A large statue isn't needed, but I think I'll leave it.

I'm still trying to have only 2 engineer posts.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 12-30-2020 @ 08:56 AM).]

There will be a mission post, abandoning a goal.

In addition to a nearby legionary fort, every approach to the city will be blocked by a wall with a gatehouse.

I intend to go into debt to make Rome's invasions more frequent, but there's no hurry. All mission requirements except Favor will be satisfied first.

There will be 3 grand villas and 69 grand insulae, for 6096 people before ghosts. Roughly 70 ghosts should form, so the population will stay over 6000, allowing the city to contain more oil. There will be an extra furniture workshop, speeding up recovery from an extended loss of timber.

The eastern valley has been designed. The wine workshop is right behind the Senate and governor palace.

The wine workshop is right behind the Senate and governor palace.

The satisfied and half-drunk rulers could be less dangerous to common people. Smart idea.

A new goal: all farms are on the plateau. (I don't recall anyone doing this.) Most of the plateau has been redesigned.

Employees:
10 - 2 engineer post
420 - 21 school, 8 library, 1 academy, 1 mission post
69 - 2 barber, 2 bath, 3 clinic, 1 hospital
141 - 13 theater, 1 amphitheater, 1 colosseum
31 - 3 actor colony, 1 gladiator school, 1 lion house
154 - 24 tower, 1 barracks
40 - 5 small temple, 1 senate
400 - 20 wheat farm, 20 meat farm
60 - 2 pit, 1 mine, 3 quarry
120 - 4 pottery ws, 5 furniture ws, 1 wine ws, 2 weapon ws
201 - 15 market, 13 granary, 8 warehouse
44 - 11 fountain
----
1690

Unemployment should be around 1%. (If more ghosts form than I expect, 20 schools will give perfect coverage.)

Farms can produce over 6% extra. Extra granaries help ensure that enough food is stored for people to give the best comments.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 01-09-2021 @ 06:13 AM).]

21 school, 8 library, 1 academy

So it will be 90 culture city, right?

What about forums? Only Senate will work for taxation? Still enough for nearly-zero financial bill? Maybe it is better (with respect to more effective workforce usage) to abandon weapons workshops and quarries (less export income) and make more income from taxes with forums? Did you investigate this?

Everything else (except of granaries) is I suppose edge-effective, especially 2 eng. posts (especially considering the mountainous map layout). I would imagine it shall be at least 4 for 6 000 pop.

Extra granaries help ensure that enough food is stored for people to give the best comments

What do you mean under "best comments"? Is it: "This city gets full marks, it is a wonderful place" by librarian? "This city is fantastic" by schoolchild? Do you know what are the other factors for triggering this "exaltation messages" from people on the streets? Or it is full half-year granaries only?

Quoted from Zipods:

So it will be 90 culture city, right?

Yes.

Quoted from Zipods:

Only Senate will work for taxation? Still enough for nearly-zero financial bill?

There will be plenty of tax income--I don't care (much) about getting more. Roughly half of the people will be registered for tax at any time. The tax rate could be 25%.

Quoted from Zipods:

abandon weapons workshops and quarries (less export income) ... Did you investigate this?

No. I need the export income in the beginning. The mine, weapons ws, and quarries could be turned OFF later, but I slightly dislike the looks of a city with industries OFF and not building forums made the design easier.

Quoted from Zipods:

2 eng. posts ... I would imagine it shall be at least 4

It took a lot of time to figure out. I like challenges, but that was almost too much.

Quoted from Zipods:

What do you mean under "best comments"? Is it: "This city gets full marks, it is a wonderful place" by librarian? "This city is fantastic" by schoolchild?

Yes.

Quoted from Zipods:

Do you know what are the other factors

Yes. See reply #6 in Sentiment (mood) - some numbers.

Thanks a lot, Brugle!

Finally I found answer on this 22-year long question about exaltation of street walkers... I thought it was somewhat random. Now will try to build cities according to the checklist in the thread you linked on. It seems that the hardest thing to make it is half-year stockpile of food (some extra workers (for 15000+ cities it may be +100-200 workers, pretty big deal haha ) for granaries and better planning needed), which was already mentioned here. Thanks a lot again!

Regarding the financial state of Rebel Lugdunum - I just realized that it is possible to completely abandon any tax and trade. You do not need any income and may get as deep in red zone (loan) as theoretically possible (limited only by the software, as there shall be some math limit for number of digits for city treasury because of programming code limits, my guess it is 2^32 or 2^64, very long figure indeed ). As the key requirement is absence on any kind of human intervention, then money actually does not matter, you just do not need them. Real utopia haha.

This could be one of the potential sources for releasing free workers for 100 culture/more towers or adding some sentiment points via lowest taxes (0%) and highest wages (100 or Rome+8 Denarii as mentioned in Sentiment thread)). What do you think?

Quoted from Zipods:

exaltation of street walkers... half-year stockpile of food

My tests say 4 months is enough.

Quoted from Zipods:

math limit for number of digits for city treasury ... my guess it is 2^32 or 2^64

It is a signed 32-bit number, so the maximum treasury is 2^31 - 1.

Quoted from Zipods:

very long figure indeed

Not really. You pay interest (10%/year) on debt. Once that beccomes the major expense, the debt is doubled in about 7 years. So in a few hundred years, the treasury changes from about -2000000000 Dn to about +2000000000 Dn. Rebel Lugdunum becomes too big to fail!

I haven't analyzed what happens at the end of the year when calculating tribute.

Quoted from Zipods:

potential sources for releasing free workers for 100 culture/more towers or adding some sentiment points

Shouldn't need more towers. Culture 100 would take 7 more academies, and only 60 workers are freed by eliminating exports. Sentiment should already be the best.

Quoted from Zipods:

What do you think?

Playing with debt is part of the plan.

I sure hope Rebel Lugdunum works. I wouldn't want to miss the fun.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 01-09-2021 @ 02:08 PM).]

Quoted from Brugle:

the treasury changes from about -2000000000 Dn to about +2000000000 Dn. Rebel Lugdunum becomes too big to fail!

What did you mean? City comes from bankruptcy to the super rich one itself due to passing through software digit limit?

Quoted from Brugle:

Playing with debt is part of the plan.

That's nice. When do you expect to share the ready-to-go version of the city?

Quoted from Zipods:

City comes from bankruptcy to the super rich one itself due to passing through software digit limit?

Yes, in that software defines that 32-bit number as the treasury. I consider it a hardware limit.

Quoted from Zipods:

When do you expect to share the ready-to-go version of the city?

The design is mostly done. It might take me a week to build, but I'm slow so maybe longer.

The 8 pottery/furniture/oil/wine market traders will be about 34 tiles apart. In my opinion, this is where Rebel Lugdunum is most likely to fail--a grand insula might devolve to a medium (or small) insula from running out of furniture or oil. It is too complicated for me to analyze.

The 5 wheat/meat market traders will be about 50 tiles apart.

54% 57% 55% of the people will have doctor coverage (so health will be good).

I'll try to prevent anyone from being thrown out of their home, but won't list it as a goal.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 02-19-2021 @ 01:42 PM).]

The design is completed.

These are my personal goals (the last 11 are only for the final city):
* No future history except for defense tests and Massilia route and landslides and no bad water or mine cave in or pit flood
* Very Hard difficulty
* Debt/rescue only after mission requirements except Favor are met
* No cheats
* Personal funds are not used (although may be collected)
* No festivals and no blessings
* All farms are on the plateau
* Wolves are not "fenced"
* Only 2 engineer posts
* No protestors
* Gatehouses are only in external walls
* No forums
* Labor is not micromanaged
* Only trees can be deleted
* No requests are fulfilled (trolgu's idea)
* Culture 90
* Prosperity 100
* Grand (or perhaps briefly large) insulae are the poorest houses
* There is at least one grand villa
* Shows in all entertainment venues at least part of the time
* Senate, governor palace, and some best houses are close together
* Senate, markets, bathhouses, and fountains are upgraded
* A gatehoused wall blocks every approach to the city
* A legionary fort is near every approach to the city
* All roads, including the Road to Rome, are connected
* People give best comments (such as "This city is fantastic!")
I hope to avoid temporary large insulae, but the devolution of grand insulae just one level during a free run would probably not be noticed.

I expect to use Julius v1.6.0 during construction and GOG.com Caesar III during some of the free run.

[Added "* Labor is not micromanaged".]
[Added " and landslides and no bad water or mine cave in or pit flood".]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 01-17-2021 @ 08:12 PM).]

Hi Brugle, I am very excited to see the city

* A legionary fort is near every approach to the city

I also had the idea of building forts outside the city, but Caesar's troops seem to feel better after slaughtering a few enemies.

Quoted from trolgu:

I also had the idea of building forts outside the city

Some of my defense tests involved legionaries in their fort exposed to Caesar's troops outside the city and supported by towers. I thought the legionaries would stop Caesar's troops long enough to provide good targets for the towers, but legionaries in their fort are killed too quickly.

The legionary forts in Rebel Lugdunum are inside the city, each one near a wall with gatehouse blocking an approach.

I often design a city without considering how it will be built. However, this time I made sure that making soldiers (to kill wolves) and selling exports would be easy. After that it's a bit harder.

With around 700 people living in tents, the towers can be manned while exports are made and sold. The city will expand when there's enough money. Unlike my recent cities, labor won't be micromanaged. (I decided to make that a personal goal, so reply #15 was edited.)

No Trade Lugdunum has little defense since I trusted the mission briefing which said "You will not encounter any armed resistance". That might be reasonable in a peaceful city for 13 years, but not in Rebel Lugdunum. Some of the legionary forts will be manned fairly early.

I forgot that future history said there were landslides, no bad water, no mine cave in, and no pit flood, so reply #15 was edited again.


At Very Hard difficulty, Lugdunum starts with 0 people, 3750 Db, Cu 0, Pr 0, Pe 0, and Fa 40.

1st Year (170 BC): Salary and tax rate were set to 0. 39 vacant lots, first 3 bridges, iron mine, both weapon workshops, barracks, javelin fort, first engineer post, first marble quarry, first clay pit, first pottery workshop, and first warehouse were built. The Mediolanum route was opened. Weapons were first sold. Landslide first occurred. The year ended with 195 people (in small tents), 598 Dn, Cu 0, Pr 5, Pe 2, Fa 39, and "small" health.

2nd Year (169 BC): 30 vacant lots, 4th bridge, first gardens, first clinic, first 2 granaries, and 2nd warehouse were built. All wolves were killed. The year ended with 195 people (in small tents), 518 Dn, Cu 0, Pr 5, Pe 4, Fa 38, and "small" health.

3rd Year (168 BC): 7 vacant lots, first oracle, 3rd granary, 2nd and 3rd (last) marble quarries, 2nd (last) clay pit, 2nd through 4th (last) pottery workshops, first gatehouse, and mission post were built. The year ended with 380 people (in small tents), 735 Dn, Cu 30, Pr 5, Pe 9, Fa 37, and average health.

4th Year (167 BC): 66 vacant lots, first 2 legionary forts, and first 14 towers were built. The Massilia route became available and was opened. Marble and pottery were first sold. Rome requested 10 meat in 24 months. The year ended with 580 people (in small tents), 836 Dn, Cu 22, Pr 5, Pe 14, Fa 36, and average health.

5th Year (166 BC): 38 vacant lots, 2nd oracle, first 3 meat farms, and 15th through 24th (last) towers were built. The year ended with 820 people (in small tents), 2693 Dn, Cu 30, Pr 5, Pe 19, Fa 35, and average health.

Rome's troops don't have a chance!

6th Year (165 BC): 5th through 11th (last) bridges, all 8 reservoirs, all aqueducts, first 3 fountains, first plazas, 4th through 7th meat farms, 4th granary, and first medium statues were built. Fa fell 3 for not sending 10 meat on time. Rome requested 10 meat in 24 months. The year ended with 1052 people (532 in large tents, 520 in small tents), 2578 Dn, Cu 22, Pr 7, Pe 24, Fa 31, and average health.

7th Year (164 BC): 4th through 9th fountains, 2nd (last) engineer post, 5th through 10th granaries, first school, first 6 markets, 2nd through 4th gatehouses, 3rd legionary fort, and first large statue were built. The year ended with 1228 people (1148 in large tents, 80 in small tents), 2255 Dn, Cu 15, Pr 9, Pe 29, Fa 30, and average health.

8th Year (163 BC): 3rd oracle, all 5 small temples (1 to each god), first 12 wheat farms, 11th and 12th granaries, 5th gatehouse, 4th legionary fort, and first small statue were built. Fa fell 5 for not sending 10 meat at all. Fa fell 3 for not sending 10 meat on time. All roads were connected. The year ended with 1564 people (1494 in small shacks, 70 in small tents), 1888 Dn, Cu 31, Pr 14, Pe 34, Fa 21, and average health.


My original plateau design had a market trader whose walks were all the same, taking 23/16 months (including "coffee break"), short enough to prevent devolution. When redesigning the plateau to hold 40 farms, the shortest trader walks took only 21/16 months, but I had a senior moment and simply assumed that all of her walks were the same. Wrong: 2 of her walks had "random" parts, were longer, and could be much longer. Major design error!

But I was very lucky. Those walks took only a little more than their minimums, 24/16 months and 25/16 months. This might allow devolution (especially since the interval between consumption of goods is not uniform, alternating between 7/16 months and 9/16 months), but would only be 1 level (so no loss of people when a grand insula devolves).

9th Year (162 BC): Tax rate was set to 6%. 2nd clinic, 13th through 20th (last) wheat farms, wine workshop, first furniture workshop, 3rd and 4th warehouses, and Senate were built. Vines, timber, and fruit were first bought. Rome requested 10 meat in 24 months. For the first time, houses had vacancies at year-end. The year ended with 1928 people (626 in small hovels, 1034 in large shacks, 198 in small shacks, 70 in small tents), 1776 Dn, Cu 30, Pr 19, Pe 39, Fa 20, and good health.

10th Year (161 BC): 8th and 9th meat farms, colosseum, gladiator school, first theater, 7th through 15th (last) markets, and 5th and 6th warehouses were built. Fa fell 5 for not sending 10 meat at all. Fa rose 5 for meeting the 25% milestone. The year ended with 2214 people (2144 in small hovels, 70 in small tents), 1558 Dn, Cu 30, Pr 23, Pe 44, Fa 19, and good health.

11th Year (160 BC): 10th through 12th meat farms, amphitheater, and first library were built. Oil was first bought. Fa fell 3 for not sending 10 meat on time. Massilia increased its oil quota. The year ended with 2386 people (1289 in large hovels, 1027 in small hovels, 70 in small tents), 2464 Dn, Cu 24, Pr 25, Pe 49, Fa 15, and good health.

12th Year (159 BC): Wage rate was raised to 31 (Rome+1). Tax rate was raised to 8%. First bathhouse, 13th through 16th meat farms, and lion pit were built. Rome requested 10 marble in 24 months. The year ended with 2549 people (1207 in small casas, 375 in large hovels, 897 in small hovels, 70 in small tents), 2060 Dn, Cu 24, Pr 28, Pe 54, Fa 14, and good health.

13th Year (158 BC): 4th oracle, 3rd (last) clinic, first barber, hospital, first actor colony, 2nd through 4th schools, and academy were built. Fa fell 5 for not sending 10 meat at all. Rome will invade in 1 year. The year ended with 2711 people (79 in a grand insula, 157 in large insulae, 60 in medium insulae, 836 in small insulae, 76 in large casas, 153 in small casas, 435 in large hovels, 845 in small hovels, 70 in small tents), 1841 Dn, Cu 32, Pr 33, Pe 59, Fa 8, and good health.

14th Year (157 BC): Wage rate was raised to 38 (Rome+8). Tax rate was raised to 25%. 10th and 11th (last) fountains, 5th oracle, and governor palace were built. 38 Romans attacked. Fa rose 10 for defeating the Romans. Fa fell 3 for not sending 10 marble on time. Rome requested 10 marble in 24 months. The year ended with 3012 people (130 in grand villas, 476 in grand insulae, 168 in large insulae, 280 in medium insulae, 494 in small insulae, 94 in large casas, 316 in small casas, 885 in large hovels, 169 in small hovels), 3050 Dn, Cu 37, Pr 41, Pe 64, Fa 14, and good health.

15th Year (156 BC): 17th through 20th (last) meat farms, 2nd through 5th (last) furniture workshops, 6th and 7th (last) gatehouses, all walls, and 5th (last) legionary fort were built. The year ended with 3259 people (203 in grand villas, 663 in grand insulae, 168 in large insulae, 380 in medium insulae, 619 in small insulae, 731 in small casas, 495 in large hovels), 2749 Dn, Cu 27, Pr 49, Pe 69, Fa 13, and good health.

16th Year (155 BC): 6th and 7th oracles, 13th (last) granary, 2nd through 5th theaters, 2nd and 3rd (last) actor colonies, 5th school, and 7th and 8th (last) warehouses were built. Fa fell 5 for not sending 10 marble at all. Pottery price decreased by 20 Dn. Fa fell 3 for not sending 10 marble on time. The year ended with 3508 people (260 in grand villas, 2160 in grand insulae, 100 in medium insulae, 358 in small insulae, 255 in small casas, 375 in large hovels), 2511 Dn, Cu 49, Pr 57, Pe 74, Fa 4, and good health.


One of the surgeon's walks has a "random" part that starts in the right direction, but I had another senior moment and forgot that he comes to at least one intersection, where he might go longer and maybe much longer. Second major design error!

But I was lucky again. At the first intersection the surgeon went the "wrong" way, but after that he went the "right" way. This is the longest walk of any service provider, taking 95/16 months (including "coffee break"). At least one house briefly loses hospital access.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 02-10-2021 @ 06:09 AM).]

17th Year (154 BC): Tax rate was lowered to 6%. Last roads, 7 vacant lots, 8th and 9th oracles, and 6th through 11th theaters were built. Rome requested 10 marble in 24 months. 76 Romans attacked. Fa rose 10 for defeating the Romans. The year ended with 3677 people (300 in grand villas, 2981 in grand insulae, 80 in a medium insula, 76 in small insulae, 240 in large hovels), 5412 Dn, Cu 60, Pr 65, Pe 79, Fa 13, and good health.

18th Year (153 BC): Tax rate was raised to 25%%. 10th oracle, 6th school, and 2nd through 4th libraries were built. Fa fell 5 for not sending 10 marble at all. The year ended with 3807 people (300 in grand villas, 3267 in grand insulae, 240 in large hovels), 9564 Dn, Cu 66, Pr 73, Pe 84, Fa 7, and good health.

19th Year (152 BC): 2nd (last) bathhouse and 5th and 6th libraries were built. Fa fell 3 for not sending 10 marble on time. 115 Romans attacked. Fa rose 10 for defeating the Romans. The year ended with 3954 people (300 in grand villas, 3382 in grand insulae, 272 in small casas), 15287 Dn, Cu 70, Pr 81, Pe 89, Fa 13, and good health.