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Emperor: Game Help
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Topic Subject: Emperor Patch - Bugs Report
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posted 08-10-03 04:44 ET (US)   

I have installed the Emperor patch, and I have started playing the Han campaing. I didn't go much deeper into it, but so far there are two things I noticed were not corrected.


If you load any city before starting a new scenario, the Agriculture Panel will tell you that the food imports can sustain, for example, 7546 people, i.e., the amount of food your were importing in the last scenario.


If you save your game with unoccupied houses, exit that game and reload it again, the unoccupied houses will turn into Huts or some other kind of housing I can't remember at the present.


Those were the only bugs I noticed so far. If you notice more, head over here to post more.

Ben The Vizier

posted 08-10-03 05:29 ET (US)     1 / 144  
The Recurring events bug

There's still the bug about recurring events. If you set an recurring event to happen every year, it will happen on years 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and so on instead of 1, 2, 3, 4...

If you disable sabotage in the editor, enemies will still send spies to sabotage you.

posted 08-10-03 10:03 ET (US)     2 / 144  
Destroyed City Gates

The problem of a destroyed city gate was not fixed by the patch. If you have a city gate destroyed by enemy forces, then later repaired, it will not function properly AFTER RELOADING A SAVED GAME. What happens is that when you reload the saved game, no walkers will be allowed to go through it. The pathing algorithm builds a route for them as if the gate were a solid wall (i.e., no one can go through it). The only way I have found to fix this situation is to use the shovel icon to tear down the gatehouse, then rebuild it in the same spot. The new gatehouse will begin to function normally. You will have to repeat this procedure every time you reload a saved game where a gatehouse has been destroyed and repaired. Irritating, but at least it is a workaround (although it costs $$$).

Military Request Scripted Event

Contrary to what the Campaign Creator manual states, a rival city will fire a Military Request event to your player city. This existed before the patch, they just failed to correct it (or state that the manual was in error. Reference pg.32 of the Campaign Creator pdf).

posted 08-10-03 18:52 ET (US)     3 / 144  
Since applying the patch, the campaign creater is hopeless. Instead of routes hidden, the button now says quell vassal or something similar. Alot of the other buttons are no longer named correctly. Wording is hidden and I am unable to place more than one trading station in a created city without a crash.
posted 08-10-03 20:45 ET (US)     4 / 144  
ch2006, I have been using the Campaign Creator heavily since I installed the patch and I have not encountered any of the problems you describe. Could it be something with your software ?
posted 08-12-03 08:01 ET (US)     5 / 144  

The patch has introduced a new bug with catapults. They function normally in offensive operations against walled cities and against predators, but when your city is invaded
they will not fire at enemy troops, regardless of range.
One theory is that something was changed in their targeting algorithm, but in my testing I haven't been able to get them to fire at any enemy units, regardless of their type.

posted 08-12-03 10:17 ET (US)     6 / 144  
Not per se a bug, I can imagine it being a feature. But I'm not a developer so I don't know.
posted 08-14-03 06:11 ET (US)     7 / 144  
The rusty wargamer in me has these thoughts.
A catapult firing, within a fortified city, on enemies enmassed outside of the fortifications could cause more damage to the fortifications then the enemy units.
A real catapult can't effectively target moving units but can be used to target an area that enemy troops may use enroute to the city. I don't think the military AI in Emperor is complex enough to correctly simulate the strategy. Catapults did target moving units prepatch and I would assume that they would after.

Try the tests with catapults readied outside of fortifications or use an unfortified city. The targeting alogrythm may be using a fortification restriction.
If the catapult doesn't at least target enemy catapults (stationary or moving) then its a new bug that could get exploited.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 08-14-2003 @ 06:17 AM).]

posted 08-14-03 08:00 ET (US)     8 / 144  
Hi Shaun, I agree with all your statements, but as you said -- catapults worked pre-patch. If this is an intentional new feature for catapults, why wasn't it mentioned in the Readme ?

BTW, I did try testing all the methods you mentioned. Nada.

posted 08-14-03 08:32 ET (US)     9 / 144  
My only real concern is if invading catapults have an advantage (can target defenders moving units).

If the targeting is crippled on all sides then its an undocumented features change not a bug.

posted 08-14-03 14:04 ET (US)     10 / 144  
Shaun, invading catapult units function as they did pre-patch (they target and fire normally). It's only the player's catapult units that are affected. That's why I think this is a bug.

Interestingly enough, it's only the targeting against enemy troops that is affected. I tested this by moving my catapult next to a tiger on my map, and it layed that sucker cold with a rock just fine.

I am editing this message to add that I have not done any testing in MP games, only singleplayer. Not sure if the catapult bug exists in MP or not.

[This message has been edited by Gweilo (edited 08-14-2003 @ 02:05 PM).]

posted 08-15-03 11:10 ET (US)     11 / 144  
I ran through a few tests. Savegames no longer available.

The behavior of the catapults is far from what I expected. They are not taking aggressive defensive posture to defend the city. I had different catapults preset for dragon/tiger/turtle to exclude ranging issues. Perhaps breakaway intended catapults to be none aggressive in city defense as they are seige/attack weapons.

Breakaway should give an explaination.

They will target enemy troops to defend themselves or when city structures are being damaged by enemy troops. The range of attack could have been less than 5 tiles which the patch was suppose to fix or about 5 tiles (rocks looked like they feel about 5-6 tiles away from the catapult). It was a bit hectic with massive troop gatherings in the same locale. Im too lazy to edit the PAK, lowering the number of enemy troops, and build the test city from scratch.

PS: I got 1 catapult company from the enemy and it seemed to be targeting only structures.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 08-25-2003 @ 09:21 PM).]

posted 08-15-03 11:56 ET (US)     12 / 144  
Thanks for sharing those test results, Shaun. I can tell you that enemy catapult units will indeed fire on your own troops. I have tested by sending roaming cavalry units to swoop in on enemy catapults (my normal tactic), and they still fire as they did pre-patch (at all ranges) and hurt my cavalry.

About your statement: They will target enemy troops to defend themselves or when city structures are being damaged by enemy troops. I have been testing ALOT and have never seen my catapults do this, regardless of what the enemy units are attacking in my city. My catapults just sit there. :-(

[This message has been edited by Gweilo (edited 08-15-2003 @ 11:57 AM).]

posted 08-15-03 12:06 ET (US)     13 / 144  
I had a lot of enemy cavalry that used ranged weapon attacks. If they attacked close quarters I expect that the patch fix would have prevented return of fire.

The second link is a save at a point that the catapult has started to fire, responding to the enemy units causing damage to structures most probably.

PS: Catapults default setting is turtle which isn't very effective. I uped them to tiger/dragon for a more effective range/reaction. The manual states that the aggressive setting has no effect for catpult but I'm not too sure as its accuracy. More testing situations will be needed to prove/disprove aggressive setting usefulness.

PSS: the first link is the month before the invasion begins. You can move the catapult units closer to the gate before the invasion begins. They don't do a darn thing while the enemy travels the chasm length.

PSSS: When sending your cavalry to attack the enemy catapult you caused it to change into a "self-preservation" mode. It was rsponding to the attack not targeting simply because the cavaly was within its range.

PSSSS: Don't try to win its impossible. I set the invasion force to 85-100 to insure I would get an enemy catapult.

added a link in above post so however wants to has more time (5 months) to place the catapults in various positions on the map and play with the aggressive setting.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 08-15-2003 @ 01:04 PM).]

posted 08-15-03 13:50 ET (US)     14 / 144  
I'm about to submit a new singleplayer campaign to EH, and it has a strong military emphasis, so this new and undocumented change to catapults has held my attention. Do you mind if I give you a credit as a playtester, for sharing all this valuable catapult testing information ?
posted 08-15-03 19:10 ET (US)     15 / 144  
Thanks for the compliments. No credit as I wasn't playtesting your campaign. I raised more questions about catapult behavior than I answered.
posted 08-25-03 22:31 ET (US)     16 / 144  
Farm and orchard production is not being properly credited to the "Production Goals". A "non-credit" of up to 6 loads per farm/orchard is possible. I accounted for leftovers from the previous year, which the program isn't counting. I'm assuming its not counting the remainder at the farm either and possibly not counting some partial carts (less then 4 loads).
[Problem existed prepatch and was not included in the fixed isses]

A scripted Flood can cause massive unemployment (95%). The flood doesn't cut off any roads other then the kingdom road (entry&exit points flooded). I expected 25%-30% as some industries were connected by a bridge. [Problem is caused by the programs means of determining building employment elgibility - must have path to exit/entry points]

An Inspector on elevated land, adjacent to a downramp with a roadblock at the normally preferred spawning tile will spawn its walker onto the ramp. Its the only instance, I'm aware of, that a spawning will occur in a diagonal direction. Havn't tried other buildings or an upramp.

Inspector's Tower


[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 08-27-2003 @ 03:31 PM).]

posted 09-02-03 13:17 ET (US)     17 / 144  
Weird Invasion Behavior

edit: download removed

To block the "unfinished" Stone Wall Gate I build defensive military walls with a Gate and Towers. I left one side open (one tile width) and the other side I connected to the Stone Wall (Monument). The reason is to incourage the invasion to choose a normal invasion point, otherwise the invasion comes from the Exit point (undefended).
Once the invasion begins it is possible to add a single Wall section connecting to the Stone Wall (Monument) and block the invasion path. A few invaders sometime continue the attack but the majority just stand back and wait for months/years perhaps.

Seige mentality or pathing error?

PS: If I know this would happen I wouldn't have requested defensive aid. I would have just waited the invasion out.

I learned that given enough favor decrease an uncontacted city will:
a. send spys (caught one)
b. will later conduct a "random invasion" given the right conditions (favor/shields/coins).

Why no military? - Because its fun!

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-12-2003 @ 05:30 PM).]

posted 09-03-03 10:37 ET (US)     18 / 144  
Monument workers get stuck when a "military wall" (single tile) is placed along their pre-choosen path. Pathing seems to be choosen at the monuments home tile (most northern road tile not part of monument). Alternate pathing is not enabled; if pre-choosen path is blocked by a "military wall" (residential walls are not obstructions) the worker will pedal in place for at least a month (I'm too impatient to wait longer).

edit: download removed

Both stuck worker are returning to their buildings; it was inconvenient to have a stuck worker going to monument as it slows/stops construction, but the behavior is the same. One worker (curently pedaling for 1-2 weeks)was 2 tiles from military wall placement the second stuck worker(pedaling for ~1week) was a bonus as it was hiden in the monument graphics when I placed the military wall. By sheer chance it had choosen a path that the military wall was on.

I reloaded sav and speed through several months rhe stuck workers remain and several more pile up. Return pathng to building (after servicing monument) isn't even looking for military walls. Prehaps the entire pathing subroutine (to monument/from monument)is missing military walls.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-12-2003 @ 05:32 PM).]

posted 09-03-03 11:14 ET (US)     19 / 144  
Getting warehouse (cross-country/disconnected) will NOT go to the closest accepting warehouse but insists on going to the first placed warehouse (even if it is farther) that has the item at spawn time.

edit: download removed

2 accepting warehouses placed at diffent times (1~2 years apart) Getting warehouses are getting stone from the first placed warehouse and ignoring the second full warehouse(~15 tiles closer bet placed after the first warehouse) unless the first warehouse is empty at arrival time or spawn time. Each of the getting warehouses have spawned several getters since placing the second warehouse and it having been stocked.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-12-2003 @ 05:33 PM).]

posted 09-03-03 16:41 ET (US)     20 / 144  
Sabi Invasion (edit: downloads removed)

With part of the City walled in, previous to the Sabi Invasion, the Invasion was spawned just inside of the military walled city section along the outside of the Great Wall.
I had requested troops from Chang-an which arrived immediately after the "invasion message/defend city option". This may have been the reason for spawning inside the wall, but its still rather discomforting to know that the military walls are not as effective on borderline/short call defensive aid.

With a military presence in the city - The fight was on.

I had Xi Wang Mu in the city to speed construction and for some odd reason I had her patrolling the Great Wall She doesnt fight except to defend herself but she is good "bait" for the enemy troops. They follow her around like puppy dogs while the Towers cut them up. Sabi was defeated with only 2 cavalry / 2 crossbowmen / 1 Catapult(kept out of battle for a couple good reasons) borrowed from Chang-an. This being played at V.Hard makes me giggle at the AI's ineptness.

to sum up:
1. Enemy troops spawning and invasion message should be last item in the month turn message quene or at least after "defensive aid troop arrival" notifiction.
2. Heroes should not be as highly prized as targets for enemy troops especially if they don't have a "home military" duty/use.

These 2 things are quirks, not bugs/major problems.
Two links in the text for those interested.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-12-2003 @ 05:35 PM).]

posted 09-03-03 18:11 ET (US)     21 / 144  
Shaun, do you know what invasion option the invading troops were using? I didn't download your test game so I don't know if it was custom or delivered in the game. If it is custom, you can play around with the invasion options, which are: rampage, food supply, housing, industry, infrastructure, military, and rampage. It's possible that invading troops will totally ignore a hero if they are using a certain option. Only extensive testing would reveal this.
posted 09-03-03 18:56 ET (US)     22 / 144  
All the invasions are random caused by my city having no military. Its the Sui/Tang Dynasty Great Wall mission.

I was hoping Sabi would be the last, but Yen decided to invade as well. I got no invasion notice just saw their troops moving on the Empire map. They arrived in Sept 614CE just 5 months before the Wall would be complete. I got stuck in some Auto Defeat loop (Can't win no matter what I do with all of Yens troops falling dead as well). I'll be replaying Feb 614 (Yen invasion force not present-yet) to completion.
Perhaps corrupted data as I see no reason for my defeat. I had created a partial company of Infantry as well as getting a Defending Hero (Guan Di).

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-03-2003 @ 07:00 PM).]

posted 09-03-03 19:44 ET (US)     23 / 144  
City Walls will stall monument workers, and it doesn't really matter when the wall was placed. This was mentioned during the patch testing, but the stall is easy to avoid and would have been very tricky to fix, so it's still there.

Monument select destinations by absolute distance, regardless of pathing, and then go cross country to get there. They don't even care about roads. Only the delivery carts need roads.

Selecting the nearest accepting warehouse with goods available as the getting target was fixed in the patch. I diagnosed that one myself. The previous behavior wasn't in placment sequence so far as I could tell. More like something was simply wrong with the search algorithm.

Extend your grasp of the Empire at Serpentineum
posted 09-03-03 20:01 ET (US)     24 / 144  
I included the spacing as extra info. I've had monument workers (Labor camps/masons) get stuck around walls and towers in both direction (going to job/returning to home building). Its a pain to space things as to avoid it with Great Wall missions (regular monuments present no problems).

The warehouse problem is when they are disconnected. I have the Patch installed, its reproducable on 2 differant computers (both patched), its not campaign/map specific.

PS: The home road tile does matter on the Great Walls. Place a Military Gate over it and all the workers get stuck.
The workers not only dont need road access they don't even move arount buildings they go through them.
Make a quick check with you NDA/Sierra contracts rep. The admision of known problem and companies inaction may be a violation.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-03-2003 @ 08:23 PM).]

posted 09-04-03 11:21 ET (US)     25 / 144  
I did a little investigations by selecting various save points and contacting all the uncontacted cities.

Everyone is Apathetic toward me, having 1 or 2 sheilds.

I'm getting spies from everyone except trade partners.

Once I'm a Vassal to Yen, Yangzhou is shown as an Ally.

I suspect that the invasion from Yen was assisted by Yangzhou. An Invasion rule may exist that an allied invasion may require more than one military company or assistance from an Ally to thwart the Auto-Defeat.

My plan is to send gifts of 2500 cash and 1000 cash to Yen followed by a request to become an Ally. From the Feb 614 save this will cause Yen to call off Invasion and complete the great Wall by ~Feb615. Yangzhou may trigger an invasion but there troops won't get to the city before monument completion. I'll loss Chang-an as an ally/trade partner. Defensive aid request for Sabi invasion made Chang-an resentful, and the 2500 cash to keep them will be going to Yen.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 09-04-2003 @ 11:24 AM).]

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