[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-15-2020 @ 00:42 AM).]
I also tried this at one point as well. xDQuoted from Yiannakis:
What about killing enemy forces with lava or a flood?
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-15-2020 @ 01:25 PM).]
IIRC when the player has already become conquered by another city and then somehow angers it, the conquerer city sends troops to raze the vassal city (you), with no option to bribe or surrender. Is it possible to force that sort of razing attack without having been vassal?Quoted from Mazeppa:
what if the player decided to surrender to that invasion?
Yes, it's very much possible. All the player has to do is reduce that rival's opinion of him toQuoted from Yiannakis:
IIRC when the player has already become conquered by another city and then somehow angers it, the conquerer city sends troops to raze the vassal city (you), with no option to bribe or surrender.
Is it possible to force that sort of razing attack without having been vassal?
You'll have to test it thoroughly to see if it works.Quoted from Yiannakis:
As for making the disaster 'land' properly, I was thinking I would have the enemy troops traverse a tunnel that leads to the city, and maybe time a lava eruption filling the tunnels about a month after the enemy forces first arrive, so it will hit them while they're halfway through it. Does that sound reliable?
Also I'm only assuming I can cause an enemy attack at a specific time as an event, I haven't gotten that far yet.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
Yes, it's very much possible. All the player has to do is reduce that rival's opinion of him to "hostile"; even a low "displeased" opinion is enough to have an unscripted invasion coming from that rival.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
You'll have to test it thoroughly to see if it works. But in my experience, enemies attacking the city would always wait a bit at the start, to organize their forces before they start to move/attack. This can take a couple of months, or more.. depending on how many troops they have.
Ahh, I see what you're saying now. (I was wondering why you wanted to have the rival hostile in the first place, as this obviously wouldn't work for something so precise. xD)Quoted from Yiannakis:
This particular attack might have to be scripted to work as I'm intending however. Do you know if the enemy city can be made to be hostile at the outset, as in as soon as the city flourishes or the episode begins?
Yeah, I like that idea.Quoted from Yiannakis:
I could time the lava eruption to occur after the minimum time (over many playtests) it takes the enemy troops to start moving toward the city. If some of them make it all the way through the tunnel that's even better, as it's more dramatic.
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-16-2020 @ 12:35 PM).]
Thanks, now I'm just trying to interpret these settings (first time using them, as you know). Does the yellow 1 refer to the player city and the yellow 8 to the invading city? And the numbers are yellow because the setting is not eligible, right? As in there are no cities nos. 1 or 8 for instance.Quoted from Mazeppa:
https://i.imgur.com/lUBLxwO.png
I think it's necessary to the premise of my adventure, as the enemies aren't trying to conquer the player city, but to eradicate it.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Is it possible to force that sort of razing attack without having been vassal?
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 05-17-2020 @ 09:35 AM).]
The yellow numbers refer to the city number. So if you want one specific city to attack you, put the same numbers.. but if you want the computer to choose what city (i.e. randomize), then indicate different numbers.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Thanks, now I'm just trying to interpret these settings (first time using them, as you know). Does the yellow 1 refer to the player city and the yellow 8 to the invading city? And the numbers are yellow because the setting is not eligible, right? As in there are no cities nos. 1 or 8 for instance.
The markers refer to the entry point where the enemy will attack, and not their way of exit. These markers areQuoted from Yiannakis:
Do the markers refer to entry (left) and exit (right) points?
Actually, the number refers to the total amount of soldiers attacking you. But their composition (as in how many are hoplites, cavalry, rabble) is fixed, and depends on what type of civ they are.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Do the amounts refer to horsemen and hoplites (or their equivalents) respectively?
I can think of two ways to do this, actually.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Also, I think this question got lost in my myriad of questions: Is it possible to force that sort of razing attack without having been vassal?
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-17-2020 @ 02:43 PM).]
Well, now I have a question related to this as well: how does the atlantian fire launcher upgrade improve the attack value of the frigate?Quoted from Mazeppa:
http://zeus.heavengames.com/misc/gameinfo/EnemyInfo.shtml
Oh, this is so cool. But will the rival demand tribute 'again' at the end of the year if the player survives the attack? Because apart from the disaster-impeded attack I think I want the attacks (from maybe several rival cities) to be recurring until episode goals are met.Quoted from Mazeppa:
If you look at the right side, you'll see "no tribute". Now, if you change that city from "ally" to "rival", you can toggle the "no tribute" option to "rec tribute", meaning when that city appears, you have to pay tribute to him.... Also, take note at the "REC 4,000 drachmas".. This is the tribute you would pay at hero level (if you want to change that, go ahead).
So using the invasion event, set an invasion from that rival city in that episode, and you'll see "[rival city] seeks to destroy you" when you playtest it. This means you have to fight this invasion off, or you lose the game. Just make sure you set an invasion before the rival demands tribute (I think that's either around 1 year from episode start, or January.. not really sure).. so maybe 6 or 8 months.
What's going on with those land trade routes?Quoted from Mazeppa:
https://i.imgur.com/v4Zi2hS.png
Ooh, that I'm not too sure.. But all I can say, is that they really pack a punch.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Well, now I have a question related to this as well: how does the atlantian fire launcher upgrade improve the attack value of the frigate?
Nope. When the player survives that attack, the player will be free from paying tribute to that rival city... But if the rival attacks again after that and the player either surrenders or loses, he will have to pay tribute once more.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Oh, this is so cool. But will the rival demand tribute 'again' at the end of the year if the player survives the attack? Because apart from the disaster-impeded attack I think I want the attacks (from maybe several rival cities) to be recurring until episode goals are met.
Oh, that.. Haha!! xDQuoted from Yiannakis:
What's going on with those land trade routes?
Quoted from Mazeppa:
The only way the player loses the game - in regards to invasions - is if he can't survive an attack from the rival city while being a vassal to that city.. (that, as well as being too unpopular for too long)..... So let's say, you are a vassal to Athens, and paying tribute to that city. If Athens launches another attack at you, the event msg will display "Athens seeks to destroy you". And if you can't survive that attack, you lost the game... But if you win that attack, you are no longer a vassal, hence no longer paying tribute.
On the other hand, you could also script 2 recurring invasions from the same rival city, but on different dates and close enough to each other.. so for example:Quoted from Yiannakis:
Hm, I don't suppose I can somehow secretly renew vassalage after every won battle against a razing force? I might have to just do one huge battle every episode instead of recurring ones then. Unless the hidden hostile rival city trick can be repeated several times in one episode?
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-19-2020 @ 08:53 AM).]
Quoted from Mazeppa:
This is just an example. But from these 2 scripts, what will happen is that 2 invasions will be launched every year, 4 and 7 months after episode start, and both between 120 to 180 men. By setting the months close to each other, there is a greater chance that the player will surrender one invasion to prioritize fighting the other, and make sure he wins.
The part you quoted does exactly that.Quoted from Yiannakis:
Oh, but the point is to not have the option to surrender (or bribe), as theattacking city is out to eradicate the player. That's what I'm trying to figure out, whether it is possible to have the enemy city (or cities) attacking the player, with the highest stakes possible, several times over the course of an episode.
The bribery thing, is (regretfully) impossible to not have as an option.. it's kind of a game mechanic you can't really disallow, which is too bad, really.Quoted from Yiannakis:
(or bribe)
You can actually create as many hidden rivals as you want.Quoted from Yiannakis:
If I can't repeat the hidden rival trick for the same rival city in one episode, then I think I'll go with one rival city launching a razing attack once every episode. Unless several different hidden rivals can emerge at different times during the episode and all be in the demand tributes/launch razing attack mode?
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-19-2020 @ 10:25 PM).]
Oh, I see now what you meant.Quoted from Mazeppa:
So either way, he will have to fight an invasion with the highest stakes possible or he will lose the game, and he won't be allowed to surrender completely and solve his problems that way.
Yes, part of this adventure will be having no allies initially, with taxes and silver mining being the only income, basically breaking even with the expenses of running the city. Eventually there will be allies who will trade, but I thought I'd make that coincide with the attacks from rival cities starting, so whatever the player is dependent on buying from allies/colony, the exported goods will barely make up for, making bribing enemies an unsustainable solution. Also, this adventure will have no elite housing and only atlantian archers, towers and depending on colony choice, triremes.Quoted from Mazeppa:
But you can reduce the likelihood of bribery by ensuring the player can't profit too much in that episode... so I can think of a few things off the top of my head.. for example:
-- no selling highly valued stuff like sculpture or armor.. instead, opt for giving opportunities on selling low value resources like food or fleece etc; wood is a nice resource that doesn't allow too much profits/losses.
-- goods requests of money from allied cities.. if the player doesn't fulfil, allied cities will lower opinions and he can't request money; if he fulfils, he can request money, but he'll lose money fulfilling their requests.
-- no tax offices.. a lot of money could be made by taxing elite houses; without tax, you could only depend on trade to make money.. and having something like wood to sell (75 dr), only humble profits could be made.
-- trade change events can further limit the player from making too much money.. so e.g. sculpture's value lowers from 640 to 70, or marble from 84 to 50... you could also do this from the beginning using the world map.
-- raise the number of men in the invading party, but you'll have to balance between difficult and impossible, but you'll come to know it by playtesting the episode many times.
Hm, yeah, that's a good point.Quoted from Mazeppa:
You can actually create as many hidden rivals as you want. But keep in mind, that you can only have upto 22 cities in total in the world map, so if you plan to have a lot of cities, you'll have to think over it for a while.[...] But, with 4 hidden rivals demanding tribute, you'll see 4 "rival demands tribute" every year, from what looks like the same city, which is weird... You can script "city appears" for that rival in the year they attack (instead of what I did), to prevent that.. but this gives away the surprise, and makes things flow unnaturally.. (imagine you're the player, seeing the same city appearing again and again.., you'll start to wonder what's going on).
Quoted from Mazeppa:
So in summary, the "2x invasion method" is less gimmicky and gets the job done, but if you go for the "hidden rivals" method, I think it's best to use just one hidden rival per episode; you'll also need to plan ahead a little, so just remember the lowest city number will always hide the higher numbers.
Tell me if any of those things suit your ideas.
I could also think of another way, but I'm not sure if that one works. I'll have to test it out first.
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 05-20-2020 @ 07:05 AM).]
I think I've found the perfect solution to your problem.Quoted from yiannakis:
So having the player surrender at any point would be contradictory to the story. Bribing seems less unlikely, but still doesn't completely jive with the motivation of the attacking forces. That's why I'm partial to the hidden rivals solution, but I'll have to think on it some more to see if I can make it work.
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-20-2020 @ 04:54 PM).]
Quoted from Mazeppa:
have that city appear and become active, whilst the other city with the same name that was active becomes inactive and disappears (make sure you do "city appears/disappears" and "city becomes active/inactive" events in the episode before that, and make them work after "episode completion".
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 05-21-2020 @ 09:33 AM).]
Actually, the "city disappears" option from the "city status change" event does exactly that.Quoted from yiannakis:
What do you think about having a proponent god smash the attacking rival into isolation at the end of an episode? Does inactivating a city make them disappear from the world map? Can I inactivate the 4 hidden rivals and make the last visible rival isolate? I'm guessing that an isolated city icon won't hide an active city icon on the world map.
I'm afraid so.Quoted from yiannakis:
Also, regarding the 22 cities limit: do 'enchanted places' count as cities?
And also, I ran into the snag with placing cities on the world map running a widescreen fix. What do you guys do when you need to edit the map?
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-22-2020 @ 01:48 AM).]
Quoted from Mazeppa:
Actually, the "city disappears" option from the "city status change" event does exactly that. It makes the city disappear from the world map, even if it's active.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
I'm afraid so. Enchanted places, ruins, cities, parent cities and colonies count to the 22 cities limit.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
And regarding the widescreen fix, I can't help you on that I'm afraid, as I never really needed it. But you can take a look at this thread if you want.. user3's reply could answer your problem.
Like he said, I think it's better to use the original one (or pecunia's fix) for playtesting and adventure designing - even if you have the widescreen fix - so as to avoid anything odd happening for standard players.
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 05-22-2020 @ 10:16 AM).]
Crap, my apologies.Quoted from yiannakis:
I can't seem to find the ruin city type in the editor, does a city have to start out as active in order to become one?
Man, that thread. xD I was super ambitious at the time with that adventure, and though I never finished it, I loved it a lot.Quoted from yiannakis:
I also have some fun ideas for 'discovering' items in the parent city. Since the thread is archived I thought I'd ask here: is it as straightforward as Haspen says? I can just make a hidden active city and name it and the leader appropriately? Also, can I make two such cities, or would that start to muck things up for me?
I think with the colonies, you're kinda over-complicating it a little... When you go back to Parent City, the only case where rivals attack that colony is if they're scripted to do so, and this is by way of:Quoted from yiannakis:
I've been reading some old threads, and now I really want to do this requests and giving gifts to yourself thing as well. I was thinking a simple solution to not having the greek rivals attack my colony is to make it a distant city after the colony mission. It won't be able to make tributes, but a hidden city with the same name as my colony might.
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-22-2020 @ 04:08 PM).]
Can this be done invisibly somehow? Like before or in between episodes? I thought it would be cool to have a Lixus ruin on the map, just to help create the apocalyptic atmosphere, as long as I don't end up needing the city slot for something else.Quoted from Mazeppa:
The city has to be scripted to be destroyed in order to become a ruin - through a military request, where if the player fails to fulfil by sending troops to defend (rival attacks ally) or a hero (city terrorized by monster), the city becomes destroyed in effect.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
In the case of "discovering items" in the parent city, you can do that using "gifts -- city 0" events, but just indicate a hint in the story that "items are being discovered" (e.g. maybe you sent an expedition to explore the land around you... or in your absence, your co-leader found stocks of things lying around), just so it makes sense when you play the game.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
I think with the colonies, you're kinda over-complicating it a little... When you go back to Parent City, the only case where rivals attack that colony is if they're scripted to do so[...] there's no way a rival will launch unscripted invasions on your colonies when you get to the Parent City.... if you're thinking along the lines of that.
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 05-23-2020 @ 07:47 AM).]
Haha!! Actually, that's not the case (and it'll be weird if it was).Quoted from yiannakis:
Oh, so I can just gift wares to the parent city from the parent city? Will the message read "Greetings me, have an orange, please accept this with your compliments"? Lol. And on that topic, it's not possible to script messages like events somehow, is it? Because that would be so useful.
Hmm, I don't think you can do it invisibly.. but if you're interested in doing something like that (which is great for immersiveness!), you can do military requests from allies (under threat of invasion by rivals) that the player could never hope to fulfil early on, and when this fails, those allies become destroyed.Quoted from yiannakis:
Can this be done invisibly somehow? Like before or in between episodes? I thought it would be cool to have a Lixus ruin on the map, just to help create the apocalyptic atmosphere, as long as I don't end up needing the city slot for something else.
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 05-23-2020 @ 11:17 AM).]
Quoted from Mazeppa:
when you script a gift event from parent city, the leader name used is not your leader name, but the governor name you placed in the parent city that's put in charge when you build a colony.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
Regarding script messages, you can change them using the game's text files in the \Model directory, but you have to know what to change and what not to change.. and even if you do, only you will notice these changes; if you send your adventure to someone else, they won't notice those changes. It's just not worth it, imo.
Quoted from Mazeppa:
All the player has to do is reduce that rival's opinion of him to"hostile"; even a low "displeased" opinion is enough to have an unscripted invasion coming from that rival.
Is it possible to script a rival into becoming a ruin? Like a +0 months monster attack that the rival doesn't ask the player to help out with (no request message), being a rival, and just ends up being destroyed. Or something to that effect.Quoted from Mazeppa:
The city has to be scripted to be destroyed in order to become a ruin - through a military request, where if the player fails to fulfil by sending troops to defend (rival attacks ally) or a hero (city terrorized by monster), the city becomes destroyed in effect.
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 06-01-2020 @ 01:01 PM).]
Yup! I'll just give you the breakdown of the stuff in the displeased opinion part.Quoted from yiannakis:
I have another question. I set the hidden rival alterns' favor to 50 (apathetic I'm guessing), but I'd like the visible rivals to have as low an opinion of the player as possible without them sending unscripted attacks.
Is the favor cutoff between not sending unscripted invasions / sending unscripted invasions 'low displeased'? Do they other unscripted things at any favor level?
I think it's possible, as I remember doing this before.. I think you just script the warning as 1 month?? Sorry, my head's a bit foggy on this one, so Haspen or user3 could correct me if I'm wrong.Quoted from yiannakis:
Is it possible to script a rival into becoming a ruin? Like a +0 months monster attack that the rival doesn't ask the player to help out with (no request message), being a rival, and just ends up being destroyed. Or something to that effect.
[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 06-05-2020 @ 03:04 AM).]
[This message has been edited by Yiannakis (edited 06-05-2020 @ 06:01 AM).]
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