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Topic Subject: Agoras have Back Doors! True Concentric Blocks, Anyone?
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posted 11-06-00 10:48 ET (US)   
Observing my latest city, Athens, I noticed that an agora that butted against a boulevard was sending it's buyers out the back of the shops onto the boulevard.

So I played around with it and I have a true concentric block. The inner road surrounds the schools, culture items, tax, etc... The agora backs onto a boulevard to gain supplies and discharges it's vendors into the inner ring.
The gymnasiums not likely able to dispatch competitors is the only drawback I can see.

I can't wait till my next city so I can put this to full use. If I have time tomorrow, I'll glyph one out.

Try it for yourself.

posted 11-06-00 12:29 ET (US)     1 / 37  

neat, if it really keeps the cart pusher where he is supposed to go.

My observations were of a more general nature, all other walker buildings will dispatch onto any of the four roads surrounding them whereby you can control their actual exit with roadblocks - thats why your above findings never even occured to me. (I guess, looking at your beautiful cities, you already knew that though )

Thanks, and thanks for sharing those nice designs of yours -I enjoy them very much

PS, just noticed your two gyms in the Miletos 'blocks' ?

a) if roadblocks at exits of block - one should give you the needed coverage - just like water and healer

b) I believe competitor coverage is only needed in elite housing - pure existence of stadium on map always gave me 'townhouse' level housing.

Or is it to just fill the void?

[This message has been edited by C Franziskus (edited 11-06-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 09:44 ET (US)     2 / 37  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that result in your housing not being connected to the road network, and thus making ineligible to contribute workers?
Even so, is there really a need for the inner road to be physically disconnected? Don't roadblocks do the job pretty well? Or is there something that I'm missing?
posted 11-07-00 10:42 ET (US)     3 / 37  
Mainly an academic exercise.
The workers do supply to the pool.
I will likely leave one road as an outlet anyways since I discovered that the buyers ingnore it in favor of the shortest route out (which I ensure is the back door). The outlet allows competitor walkers which are needed if you put Hercules' Hall in your housing block, which I do.

I still hope to do a glyph of my current block. it is a 15x22 that holds 22 houses.

posted 11-07-00 10:49 ET (US)     4 / 37  

I believe Senet is trying to point out, that the access to the roadnetwork doen't necessarily have to be in the proximity of Agora to ensure supplies. As it was to this point - at least for me, Agora placed close to exit to granary and storehouses - in this new design you become more flexible in where to put your support buildings and where to hook your block to 'Greece' - you need a second road going by the back of Agora though

Yes, you still are using roadblocks to keep your random walkers in line.

At least thats what I gathered

posted 11-07-00 11:40 ET (US)     5 / 37  
Oh ok! I should have seen how that could have been useful...
Given that housing contributes workers even if not on the main network, and that cross-country fetching still works, wouldn't that mean that as long as you have a "feeder house" Somewhere in your industrial area, you wouldn't need to connect the housing to the industry?
Well, I guess that would be useless anyways since roadblocks and roads usually do the trick, but situations like in Pharaoh might arise where the road would be much longer than a direct route due to unbuildable but walkable terrain...
Anyways, SenetEr, Re: The hercules hall, Placing it between two blocks, with a road from schools passing right in front of it is what I did in Z&E.
One last idea in this kinda offtopic post... Linear Elite blocks are extremely useful... Build elite housing between fishponds and boulevards. Put agoras at the near end, and all the other stuff at the far end. Like that, competitors are forced to walk past housing to the stadium, and entertainers from schools also pass all the housing. Very stackable too. Plus, when you stack them, you get a connecting road at the bottom with space for SYs, schools Etc. Works for me. 20 Horsemen companies, anyone?
posted 11-07-00 12:04 ET (US)     6 / 37  
No, don't need feeder housing nor road connection to industry - all you need is road at industry buildings - neat huh? (better make sure you got MO too though )
posted 11-07-00 12:49 ET (US)     7 / 37  


Here is the block I am using at present.
I've had to adapt the C3 tileset for Zeus so here are the changes to the legend:
Artist Colony=Drama School
Forum=Tax Collector
4 Barbers=Fountain (supposed to be a bath. oops)
Temple=Maintenance Office

The agora buyers exit out the back onto the avenue and the vendors come out on the inner ring. The agora can be positioned anywhere on the outer loop where it will be closest to the granaries, etc.
The corner monuments could be replaced with a house if desired. This could up the total to 26 houses but the loss of the monuments may cause desirability trouble.

[This message has been edited by SenetEr (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 12:54 ET (US)     8 / 37  
Imhotep, in response to your elite housing post, I agree . I now use a elite block that has three strips of 14 houses each. It fits in a 45x49 area and can be disconnecetd from the rest of the city if desired. It gives 21 companies and loads of space for monuments.

[This message has been edited by SenetEr (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 13:32 ET (US)     9 / 37  


Here is a block with 29 houses that fits in a 13x24 cell.
This may be pushing it with respect to how many houses a single agora can supply. It also likely violates Caesar Alan's walker distance rule for water carriers. I haven't tried this one yet, but if I did, I would put it really close to my granary.
I don't know if the avenues would give enough desirability to evolve to the highest level.

[This message has been edited by SenetEr (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 16:13 ET (US)     10 / 37  


This one is a little more predictable. It is designed to fit into a 20x16 cell. It has a inner dimension of 8x14 with a loop distance of 50. This will work with CA's limit of 52 tiles for a water loop.
It holds 30 houses as well and may have enough desirability to evolve them all. It will really miss the monuments on the corners. I will try it when I get home in the Sandbox and let you know how many people it holds.
Because of the number of houses, stability of goods may be a problem and distance to the Sys and the granary will be important.

[This message has been edited by SenetEr (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 16:25 ET (US)     11 / 37  

if they all develop into townhouses you should get 30 X 60 = 1800 population - pretty good for one block I'd say .

PS, normally I get a little hazzle with desir. around Infirmary and tax collector so they should be as far apart as possible; to avoid neg. accummulation in an area. Of course there is always the long reaching boost of a monument (up to 6 tile reach I believe).

posted 11-07-00 16:38 ET (US)     12 / 37  
You could play with the desirability a bit by flipping the 2x2 buildings around or moving the agora down 2 spaces. You could also drop the gym to the bottom and move the 2x2s up. If I knew the desirability of the different buildings I might be able to order them better. The big problem is the infirmary. It might be better off in the top row against the boulevard than on the bottom against the avenue.
Desirability plays differently on Olympian vs. Hero so I'll try them both.
posted 11-07-00 16:48 ET (US)     13 / 37  

building info @ Grumpus website 'Which way to Troy'
( ) - got all ones heart could desire

PS, if you have IE5.5, /printpreview/print does an outstanding job for a handy reference

[This message has been edited by C Franziskus (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 17:39 ET (US)     14 / 37  
My current common housing block (using the same key as SenetEr), looks a bit like this. The performer schools are located external to the block, usually right behind the agora. This holds a mere 34 houses, giving 2040 people when fully developed to townhouse level. A couple of monuments are usually required on the exterior of the block to furnish the required appeal for evolution to townhouses.

I have had abolutely no problem with walker coverage in this block. The gardens are any form of beautification structure, usually doric columns in my case


[This message has been edited by Caesar Alan (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 17:53 ET (US)     15 / 37  

I counted 48 tiles to go around block, yet I think I remember you or someone else stating, a walker would go 52 tiles; now, if you stretch your design by 2 more roadtile on top and bottom would give you 4 more housing spots (2 in middle, 1ea on outside) for 160 more people (an even 2200 total) did you try this, did I miscount or am I missing something?

(sorry, don't know about glyphs .....yet)

[This message has been edited by C Franziskus (edited 11-07-2000).]

posted 11-07-00 17:56 ET (US)     16 / 37  
Thanks CA
Nice Block and thanks for starting to use the glyphs here in ZGHF too.

I looked up the desirability at Grumpus' site.
Here is my best concentric. Inner dimensions are 8x14 for a walker distance of 48. I even squeezed a monument in. I placed the desirability killers (tax and academy) next to my most desirable items and have an avenue top, bottom and to the right, which looks a little more balanced than a boulevard top vs an avenue bottom.

posted 11-07-00 20:49 ET (US)     17 / 37  
I just gave it a try.

With houses all around, the inner ring is cut off from Greece and gets no employees. I solved this by changing one of the houses into a 2x2 garden. This allows access to the inner ring. So a max of 29 houses. I haven't tried to expand it by a few houses as suggested by CF.

My last design does not fully evolve in the corner by the theatre and above the agora. I will try to solve this by changing the oter ring road to avenues.

posted 11-08-00 01:44 ET (US)     18 / 37  
Here it is!!!

35 houses that evolve to townhouses (60*35=2100 people)
True concentric block. Only a 2x2 garden gives access to Greece.
Agora is supplied by the 'back door'
Does not generate competitors.
Fits a 22x16 cell surrounded by an avenue.
Stable at more than 30 paces from the distribution centre.
Won't win you lots of laurels at the games


Thanks to Caesar Alan for his walker distance work and to C Franziskus for suggesting I push it to add 6 houses.

[This message has been edited by SenetEr (edited 11-08-2000).]

posted 11-08-00 09:21 ET (US)     19 / 37  

I like it, than again, I like Alans block too I think both are going to be useful in my further city 'designs'.

One more question, if 2 of your 4 gardens (bottom right) were to be replaced by 'blocked road', shouldn't that give you competitor walkers too - or would that mess something else up?

posted 11-08-00 09:27 ET (US)     20 / 37  
A blocked road is what I'm using in Jason Episode 1, as I cannot build gardens yet. It works fine that way, but I'm just so excited that I can build a truly concentric block that I'll change it when I can.
The block does not demand competitors anyways so they are redundant for worker housing. Only a small portion of the houses would get them anyway (2 or 3).
I'm going to stick my stadium in my disconnected elite housing block so they wouldn't produce competitors anyways. I managed to get it working with 14 estates yesterday in a test.
posted 11-08-00 09:40 ET (US)     21 / 37  
Thanks Senet,

my reason for asking was if for some reason it would be advantageous to 'produce' competitors in such block - e.g. 'walk -by' Hercules hall or cover part of not disconnected elite blocks it be possible - guess it is!

posted 11-10-00 09:32 ET (US)     22 / 37  
C Franziskus To answer your earlier query, you should indeed be able to stretch my block a few more tiles, but I have had problems persuading the 'short' random walkers (water carriers and healers) to navigate loops close to the theoretical maximum of 54 tiles. This block gives reproducible perfect walker coverage to all the houses. I have never had a house devolve in this configuration.

As a further note, to get the appeal needed for evolution to townhouses, a couple of commemorative monuments are nedded down the long sides, and a strip of parks across the short side.

Caesar Alan | The Appian Way | The Trojan Horse (currently offline)
This season I will be mostly doing... Microwave Spectroscopy
posted 11-10-00 11:02 ET (US)     23 / 37  
Thanks Alan,

I believe, I saw you state so over at 'the other forum'

ad2, haven't tried it with your block yet, but in Senets block it proved sufficient to 'avenue' around the block - monument is cheaper though

Senet - playing with your block (reply 18) in sandbox, I ran across an noteworthy twist - when building two of these next to each other (along long side), the second block did not require placement of theatre thus leaving even more space for housing - on the downside, the granary had to be really close to agora (and well filled) to ensure stability (which, running out of food is about the worst thing to happen to a block )

posted 11-10-00 12:11 ET (US)     24 / 37  
I had a test block about 30 tiles from a granary and it worked fine. It does have to be well-stocked if you have a lot of blocks being serviced by it. I tend to place my palace complex/distribution centre in the 'centre' of my housing blocks. Don't know quite what you mean about the theatre though?
posted 11-10-00 13:33 ET (US)     25 / 37  
Was going to evolve second block slowly (as labor was needed)(should have used fleece and oil instead of culture) when, with gym and podium in place the whole block transformed into townhouses! - Thats what I meant with 'theatre'.

On a different note, I'm not happy with my storage/distribution situation yet, I'm trying to come up with a satisfiying 'distribution centre' as all my 'play along' solutions leave a lot to be desired - accounting for tributes,gifts,hero requirements,trade post,piers, and staging for sanctuaries - I always seem to run short on store houses and end up plastering them all across town, ruining my careful built city picture. Since I noticed a lot of 'blocks' and sanctuaries having 16 in one of their footprint sizes, I am trying a 16x16 'block' for distribution of 'land trade',granaries, and outside population with storehouses, next - not quite there yet, but gives a lot of room while staying within 'grid line'....

I know this will only work on a good sized map - if it works at all .

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