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Topic Subject: Ok Folks - Let's Crunch Numbers!
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posted 11-21-00 16:56 ET (US)   
I decided it was about time I did some tests to confirm what I thought were the annual production rates for the majority of domestic industries, so I ran some industries for a couple of years in sandbox. The results demonstrated that everything is as blindingly simple as I thought it was. All data was gathered for fully employed buildings, on Olympian difficulty.

The upshots of these tests are, assuming there are no God effects (discussed below):

Industries have a maximum output of 6 units per year. This means that:

Wineries produce 6 wine
Olive Presses produce 6 oil
Armories Produce 6 armor
Sculpture Studios produce 6 statues
Horse Ranches produce 6 horses

Raw Materials are a little more complex:

  1. Foundries, Mints and Timber Mills have an output that is dependent on the distance of the raw material from the relevant building. Mints also have a 'turnover period' (the length of which I have not investigated) during which the silver ore gathered is converted into Drachma (200 silver makes 100 Dr). Gathering of silver does, however, continue during at least part of this period.

  2. Masonry Shops get a big block of marble (enough for 8 slabs) at a time. It takes two months to dig the block of marble out of the ground. Once back at the Masonry Shop, it takes a month to chip off a slab of marble. When the shop has only three slabs worth of marble left, it send out another man to quarry another block of marble. So, provided the masonry shop is within a one month round trip of the quarry site, the productivity of a masonry shop is fixed at 12 slabs of marble per year.

  3. Carding sheds can support a maximum of 8 sheep. Each sheep is sheared one a year, making an maximum annual production of 800 units per shed or dairy. New sheep are sometimes born, but this only happens when you are below the 8 animal limit. When you first place sheep, they are ready for shearing in 6 months. When a baby animal is born, it is ready for shearing in 12 months. Once an sheep has been sheared, it is 12 months before it is ready again.

    For example, if you place a new sheep in March, it will be ready for shearing in September. If the shepherd doesn't shear it until November, it will not be ready for shearing again until the following November.

    A major contributing factor to is the activities of the priesthood, who will steal an alarmingly large amount of sheep every year. If they steal a sheep just before it is sheared, the consequences for productivity are obvious. Wolves have been known to pick off the occasional sheep, too

    Consequently, in the majority of years, you will produce 800 fleece per carding shed, but there will be occasional years when production dips a little below this (when a sheep is sheared at the end of December one year and the beginning of January the following time around, or if the wolves/priests have a particularly busy year). You should be safe working on the assumption that a carding shed produces between 700 and 800 fleece per year.

  4. Growers Lodges can, it appears, support a maximum of twelve vines and twelve olive trees per year, obtaining a maximum yield of twelve grapes and twelve olives. If the grapevines or olive trees are distant from the Growers Lodge, then this number will decrease. As with the Masonry Shop, there is a delay effect, making the first year's production slightly less than the maximum possible, particularly if you don't plant the vines/olive trees at the start of their growing season.

Gods can play havoc with these numbers. Generally speaking, a blessing from a God makes the building deliver four times its normal output the next time it sends out a cart. The important industries that may be blessed are:

Fleece: Athena
Oil: Athena
Wine: Dionysus
Bronze: Hades
Silver: Hades
Armor: Hephaestus
Statues: Hephaestus

Of these, the benefit is smallest for the fleece industry, because fleece tends to be gathered in gluts, and in general only one or two of the 8 cartloads produced by a carding shed will be a 'blessed load'. Similar concerns apply for foundries, and, to a lesser extent, mints. For finished goods industries, careful placement should result in quadrupled annual output: i.e. 24 carts per year!


[This message has been edited by Caesar Alan (edited 02-09-2001).]

posted 11-21-00 17:08 ET (US)     1 / 51  
Next up, are the food industries:

  1. Hunting
    The productivity of a hunting lodge depends on its proximity to a boar spawning point. Initially, productivity will be large, since all the boar in the vicinity will be quickly killed. Thereafter, the hunters may have to roam further afield to catch their prey, reducing the productivity of the hunting lodge. This is a particular problem on maps with several widely separated herds of boar. A further reduction in lodge productivity occurs as a result of boars killing hunters. Hunters tend to win a one-on-one fight, but if a second boar gets on the scene, are rapidly overwhelmed. If they succeed in killing the first boar, its carcass will be lost if the hunter is subsequently killed.

  2. Fishing and Urchin Gathering
    Again, the productivity of a Fishing Wharf or Urchin Quay depends on the distance to the relevant prey point, but it also depends on the distance to an accepting granary. If the fisherman or urchin gatherer can make the trip to the prey point and back faster than the cartpusher can deliver the food to a granary, then the productivity of the Wharf or Quay is reduced from its optimum value.

  3. Goat Herding
    This works in exactly the same way as sheep herding, which is discussed in ludicrous detail above A safe assumption is between 700 and 800 cheese produced per year.

  4. Meadow Farming
    Dead simple: all farms produce 800 food in a year, assuming they have full employment for the whole year. Since they have a whole year to deliver their produce, they can be built a very long way from accepting granary.

Caesar Alan | The Appian Way | The Trojan Horse (currently offline)
This season I will be mostly doing... Microwave Spectroscopy

[This message has been edited by Caesar Alan (edited 11-27-2000).]

posted 11-21-00 17:14 ET (US)     2 / 51  
And finally (for now!): walker speeds...

I conducted a test using warehouse cartpushers, so I cannot claim that is the speed adopted by all walkers. Further tests will be required. I also have not yet tested the effect of the Sanctuary to Hermes on cartpusher speeds. Again, this test was made on Olympian difficulty. I used the production of oil at a fully staffed olive press as an internal clock in this test. A warehouse cartpusher 'getting' goods from a warehouse 65 tiles distant was the man involved. In one month, he travelled 55 tiles, and in two months 110 tiles exactly.

So, the speed of a getting cartpusher not supercharged by Hermes (and hopefully most other walkers) is 55 tiles per month.

As usual, I welcome any comments or additions to the above, especially this rather tentative work on walker speeds.

Caesar Alan | The Appian Way | The Trojan Horse (currently offline)
This season I will be mostly doing... Microwave Spectroscopy
posted 11-22-00 10:47 ET (US)     3 / 51  
Kudos on the number crunching, you must have plenty of time on your hands.
posted 11-22-00 11:01 ET (US)     4 / 51  

Caesar Alan | The Appian Way | The Trojan Horse (currently offline)
This season I will be mostly doing... Microwave Spectroscopy
posted 11-22-00 12:08 ET (US)     5 / 51  

Nice work Caesar Alan! Thanks for mentioning my my post on herding. Perhaps you would like to add the production numbers for sheep and goats to your post so that people can print out all the numbers on one page.

Here is my take on walker speeds. I did most of this work in Pharaoh and have only done a few quick checks to see if it has changed in Zeus. It appears to be the same, but I may have missed something. The speed I got for most walkers is 54.4 squares per month which is very close to your result of 55.

Each square is divided into 15 parts (I call them "steps" ). Each month is divided into 16 "workdays" and there are 51 animation frames in a workday (Nerdicus counted them - my eyes aren't up to it). Most walkers move one step for each animation frame which makes there speed 51/15 = 3.4 squares per workday or 16*51/15 = 54.4 squares per month.

Walker speed is set in the figure_model text file. Although there is a separate file for each difficulty level, the walkers speeds are the same in each file. The file uses a number from 0 to 18 to set the speed. The following table shows the speed in squares/month that corresponds to each speed number:

Number in file Squares/month
0 0.0
1 13.6
2 18.1
3 27.2
4 36.3
5 40.8
6 54.4
7 68.0
8 72.5
9 81.6
10 90.7
11 95.2
12 108.8
13 122.4
14 126.9
15 136.0
16 145.1
17 149.6
18 163.2

Most walkers have the standard speed of 6 (54.4 squares/month). The following tables show the speed of each walker in squares per month.

Non military walkers
Animals Mythology Trade Other
Type Speed Type Speed Type Speed Type Speed






Plagued walker














    Other non military








Military walkers
  Missile Infantry Cavalry Warship Other
  Type Speed Type Speed Type Speed Type Speed Type Speed
Player Rabble








Wall sentry


Greek Rabble










Trojan Javelineers






Persian Missile










Centaur Archers








Amazon Archers








Ares     Warriors



There is lots more information about the military units in the figure_model files but I'll leave it for one of the military experts to decode.

[This message has been edited by Nero Would (edited 11-28-2000).]

posted 11-27-00 18:34 ET (US)     6 / 51  
Nero Would Excellent suggestion. Posts amended as required

The data on walker speeds is much appreciated. Your rather more fundamental approach seems logical, and would provide a perfect explanation for my observations (I think I probably gained a tile somewhere in my two-month tests )

Caesar Alan | The Appian Way | The Trojan Horse (currently offline)
This season I will be mostly doing... Microwave Spectroscopy
posted 11-28-00 15:51 ET (US)     7 / 51  
That's great work. Thank you!

Maybe I should rethink adding all eight sheep as soon as I add a carding shed. Sounds like one or two a month makes more sense.

One thing I've noticed -- both the goatherds and shepherds will head for the animals based on when they ready to be milked/shorn NOT based on how close they are to the flock.

Ex.: I had two flocks of sheep, each on a different meadow, with the right number of carding sheds near each (1 shed per 8 sheep). The sheperds did indeed walk across town to the opposite meadow sometimes. A real hit to productivity. After that, I keep all my goats/dairies in one spot and all my sheep/sheds in another.


posted 11-28-00 17:10 ET (US)     8 / 51  
Just one quick note on mints and foundary's. Mints don't begin turning the silver to drachmas until they have 250 silver, not 200 stated above.

Foundary's on the other hand collect 100 and ship the bronze to the storage yard. There doesn't seem to be a production period.

A Tale in the Desert
Flogging will continue until morale improves.
posted 12-02-00 18:16 ET (US)     9 / 51  
these infos from the manufacture side are most invaluable............but may i make more queries on numbers........on the consumer side......

1)how many unit of grape/olive needed to make 1 unit of wine/oil? my guess is 2 for 1, means 2 winery/press are needed for 1 lodge.........true?

2)how many units of bronze to make 1 unit of armour or 1 unit of scuplture?

3)are tress exhaustible? or is it true that 1 tile of tree can support an infinite number of timber mills?

4)how many carding sheds are ideal for a population of 1000? i heard 1 carding shed is enuff for 1000........

5)for that matter, how many press/farms/winery/armoury/ranges/ are needed per 1000 population?

hope that u experts out there can help me with those, or point me to a well-tabulated page with numbers.......thanks

posted 12-02-00 18:27 ET (US)     10 / 51  
wow u guys, do u spend all night crunching these numbers or what? these really helped. and you're right, Hetera , 1 or 2 sheep a month would be a good amount. Then 1 or 2 would be shorn a month, at least if u had 12-24 sheep. Am i somehat correct on this?
I might have my numbers mixed up....

Playstation, Nintendo64, Dreamcast.... Playtendocast64??
posted 12-02-00 21:39 ET (US)     11 / 51  

According to my observations:

1. Winery and Olive Press use 1 grape/olive to make 1 wine/oil.

2. Armory's use 1 bronze for 1 weapon. Sculpture Studio uses 4 bronze for 1 statue.

3. Trees are not inexhaustible. When the cutter cuts a tree down it takes some time to regrow, then they can cut it all over again.

4&5. I don't really know how much each house uses, but others will.

A Tale in the Desert
Flogging will continue until morale improves.
posted 12-03-00 04:22 ET (US)     12 / 51  
I'm almost sure sculpture studios use 5 bronze.
posted 12-03-00 07:09 ET (US)     13 / 51  
Nop,sculpture studios use 4 bronze at a time,they will not start working if there are only 3 in stock.

Does anyone konw how much wheat needed to train a horse?and if they still consume some wheat when they are waiting for those pathetic buyers?

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-03-2000).]

posted 12-03-00 09:51 ET (US)     14 / 51  
OK,I figured out the horse ranch thing myself.

Contray to Ceasar Alan's observation,a horse ranch produces 6 horses per year,and odd enough,the first horse only need one month.Each horse needs 50 consuming unit(0.5 load),and if it stayed in the ranch for a month,it will eat 10 wheat,but if a horse buyer takes it away before the turnover of the month,it eats nothing

Still find no answer to SenetEr's problem.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-03-2000).]

posted 12-03-00 12:55 ET (US)     15 / 51  
Caesar Alan/Nero Would et al:

Excellent post on numbers. Keep up the good work

Was wondering in a previous thread (and then noticed yours) how far the Angora traders will walk to get their supplies.

I've got a feeling it is not equal as it appears my baazar lady will walk much further to get her goods then say the horse trader.

Wondering if you, are any one else had experimented with this? Should be an easy test.

Apologize about asking the same question in two threads.

Good gaming,

posted 12-03-00 14:08 ET (US)     16 / 51  
some more numbers

About rabble soldier and city's workforce:every rabble(aka stone thrower) will take out 6 workers from the labour pool.

Also,when a rabble soldier died in battle,the city will loss 6 of it overall population.

You can decide how many rabbles you should call when fighting with these civilian soldiers according to these numbers.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-03-2000).]

posted 12-03-00 15:00 ET (US)     17 / 51  
Here's my two bits worth:

A growers shed can apparently only service 10 vines and 10 olive trees. They appear to tend more , and to pick more, but the fruit doesn't show up in the storehouse. The most I can get is ten each.

Agora ladies will travel 37 squares from the vendor to the granary. These are the open squares between the closest edges of agora and the granary. This also appears to be a "As the crow flies" distance since I put a 20 square loop in the road and she still went.

posted 12-03-00 16:47 ET (US)     18 / 51  
genosypheus, what I have heard, but do not know, is:

4. Any house using fleece uses 0.24 fleece a year. Thus, a carding shed, producing 8 fleece a year, supports at most 33.3 houses with fleece.

5. Any house using olive oil uses 0.24 olive oil a year. Thus, an olive press, producing 6 olive oil a year, supports at most 25.0 houses with olive oil.

posted 12-03-00 20:58 ET (US)     19 / 51  
Being suspicious to Grumps's idea of 10 vine/olive per lodge,I did a extensive test on that,the result is VERY VERY surprising!The maxium(theoretical limit,which you will never reach ) is 24!

The test is on the tutorial scenario,and I did a quite unpractical layout: I placed the lodges in the centre of meadow,6-8 tiles from each other,and with vines between them,and most importantly,a storehouse for each lodge and as close as possible.

The secret here is:

1.each tree should be attended by lodgers at least twice(I was not quite sure about how many times need) to ensure a reasonable outcome, and more importantly,the fruits must be harvested before the third month of harvest(in vine's case,means before Jan),othwise would be wasted.and the third,and most important of all:the fruits must be delivered either to a storehouse or a shop BEFORE the second wave of cutterers returning home:there should be a storage capacity limit for each lodge(again,not sure about it,guess should be 6 or 8),more fruits than that will also be wasted.(if I put the storehouse 10+tiles away,each lodge can only harvest around 10 loads,just as in Grumpus's test).

During my test,each lodge can consistantly harvest 21+ loads per season,and the best result is 23.25(four lodges with 110+ vines).I think in practical games,one lodge should be able to produce 16-20 loads every year.

On the other hand,if you are not extremely tight in workforce,more lodges doesn't hurt.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-03-2000).]

posted 12-04-00 09:25 ET (US)     20 / 51  
Hmm, maybe I missed it, but does anyone know where a listing of the distance walkers move (water carriers, MO's, etc) will travel? I have gleaned a few numbers here and there but figured that someone (with Senet, Grumpus, etal here) would have these listed...

BTW, thanks to SenetER for the balanced blocks (very, very handy!), Grumpus for the tips on how to play (ever since C3, Pharoah) and everyone else for the enjoyable forum's.

posted 12-04-00 12:33 ET (US)     21 / 51  
Ozymandous: Here are the ranges I have observed for random walkers. Note that I do not count the square where the walker first appears. I have seen a number of people post ranges that are 1 higher and I assume that they are counting that square.

- 26 squares for water carriers and healers.

- 34 squares for tax collectors, and random culture walkers (destination culture walkers going to a venue will walk much farther, but I don't know how far).

- 43 squares for maintenance officer, watchman and peddler.

- I haven't checked gods and heros.

Once the random walker reaches the limit of its range, it takes the shortest route home (passing roadblocks if necessary).

posted 12-04-00 18:00 ET (US)     22 / 51  
Plebus surmised
.(if I put the storehouse 10+tiles away,each lodge can only harvest around 10 loads,just as in Grumpus's test).

So it's the *harvest* where i'm losing. I was doing the old "let the raw materials cart pusher deliver straight to industry" thing. I guess what i need to do is place a second storehouse right next to the growers to receive the olives/grapes and the let the storehouse delivery guy do his thing.

A Tale in the Desert
Flogging will continue until morale improves.
posted 12-04-00 18:30 ET (US)     23 / 51  
Nero Would:

Thanks for the numbers, I can see now why SenetEr had to place two water carriers in his mixed block...


If only all the walkers had the same distance, wouldn't that be easy.. Then again we wouldn't have the smart folks here to figure out how to best make them work.

posted 12-05-00 06:25 ET (US)     24 / 51  

Things would be much complicated in real game:lodgers treat shop prior to storehouse,and you can't place many shops around the lodges without anyone of them is "too far away" from anyone of the lodges,and plus if you place shops around lodges,you lower the potential of the numbers vines/trees that each lodge can serve...

I haven't seen s perfect solution for this yet.One possibility is shut down oil/wine industry before the harvest season,the second is disconnect (micro) the growing area with the production area,but none is perfect.You can only use it full potential in the first growing season,i.e.delay the shop till all fruits are in the storehouses.

Now I would shoot for a 15-18 production rate in real game.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-05-2000).]

posted 12-05-00 10:38 ET (US)     25 / 51  
Referring to the grape/olive business:

Potentially though, you might be able to get around this long term. Here's a scenario I think might work. Basically, you want to have a storage area for the grapes/olives that always has a little in it when the harvest happens and enough storage space to store the whole harvest. If your overall pipeline is full with a few grapes in storage, the lodges will have to deliver to the storage areas. It takes an extra year to ramp up though. Probably worth it in the long run. Maybe sort of something like this:

1) Build 2 lodges and 36 vines (figure coming in under the theoretical 24 is safer, plus it's divisible by 6 for the wineries).

2) Have two storage areas available for grapes only. When the first harvest is completed, build no more than 2 wineries. This will leave us with a surplus of 22 or so in storage at the next harvest (each winery has produced about 4 plus has 3 in its storage). This may seem high, but it needs to be, for reasons I will explain.

3) When the second harvest is completed, build another 4 wineries to come up to 6.

After all this, at the next harvest, you'll have used up most if not all of the second harvest's crop. That original 22 surplus however will be mostely eaten up by the 3 stored in each winery, leaving only 4 or so in storage areas. The key though is to have those in storage areas so that all of the wineries are fully occupied and not accepting deliveries, forcing the lodges to go to (hopefully closer) storage areas. They will of course finish a load during harvest, but hopefully that effect will be minimal.

Also, you can always go back and set this up after the fact by deleting a few of your wineries for a couple of years. I'd also have to work out the math for other situations, but a rule of only building out around 1/3 initially seems to be good (at least it works for 3 and 4 lodges). If you feel you can harvest more than 18 per lodge per year, you could of course ramp up a little faster.

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