Nice to see that there is still interest in this game and that the forum is still up and running. I did have a look at the website at Steam and my impression was that the new game is a sort of facsimile of the old one. My question then would be, if I can still run the old game, why would I buy the new one?

I played the original game a lot back in the day. Probably did the campaigns at least six times, maybe ten.

I have also played the first 2 1/2 missions of this new version, and find that Mission 3 doesn't seem to complete. I'll maybe try again later. I also found that mission 2 (Thinis) got stuck, and had to re-start.

So far, I tend to agree with Kach about likes and dislikes. The main thing is the lack of tooltips, it's pretty much a case of trial and error on the overlays. I don't think that all of the overlays are working properly. I would expect this to be resolved before release.

Like joshofet, I wonder why I would buy this new version, especially as I have a copy of the original game which still works fine. The only real difference that I have seen so far, apart from the cosmetic changes, is support for widescreen resolutions, but there have been mods out there for years that fix that issue.

Part of the point of the new game is to fix the plethora of bugs that most are accustomed to [mostly all the cleopatra induced stuff] and fix the imbalances of missions due to poor scripting [lots of missions have buildings enabled that shouldn’t be for the mission in context of where they appear in the campaifn, artificial caps that don’t make sense [eg Behdet missing courthouses for no reason], softlocks due to players missing requests that unlock trade routes to resources you need to win them, and additionally, rebalancing military and other things like that].

Mods can’t fix the engine issues without making a new engine, because the original source code for the OG game is lost forever in the void, so barring someone spending a decade of free time recreating the engine from scratch [like pecunia did just for caesar 3 in the form of julius], many of these issues wouldn’t be fixable without Pharaoh A New Era. Plus, the original doesn’t explain game mechanics very well, PANE will properly describe Ambulomancy and introduce optional qol improvements like global labour and fixed age ratios.

@kach: i’ll address each point you raised from what i understand of dev comments on their discord:

- voice lines will be implemented in the final release. They’re just not part of the demo yet, but will be there.

- Rotating map will not be added, but there is an overlay for “flat mode” [F key] that achieves the purpose behind turning the map.

- minimap is something the devs may look at adding, based on player feedback.

- Save game names being alphanumeric only is likely a bug and unintended

Regarding perwadjyt, the devs are aware the tutorial does not explain it, but the booth only provides population to 400 people. You need two to provide perfect coverage to the required population, which adds a bonus that is currently unexplained.

That being said, sometimes the game does fail to realise you’ve reached the required housing level to enable pottery, it may be that you got a popup about it, but didn’t right-click the message away and instead just clicked somewhere else and didn’t dismiss the messages as intended.

Hope that helps

[This message has been edited by Sajuuk (edited 03-07-2022 @ 12:14 PM).]

Thanks Sajuuk.

Yes, so much is missing from a demo. We'll wait and see how it plays when released.

Thanks for explaining Sajuuk.

Most of the bugs that you mention are mainly nuisances to me that I have grown accustomed to. I can understand that they may scare away new players and I appreciate that game designers want options to fix them. I am surprised that it seems there are enough of the first category to allow a professional team to invest in the endeavour. Success!

Quoted from joshofet:

Most of the bugs that you mention are mainly nuisances to me that I have grown accustomed to. I can understand that they may scare away new players and I appreciate that game designers want options to fix them. I am surprised that it seems there are enough of the first category to allow a professional team to invest in the endeavour. Success!

Same here, though some still irk me even now (like teleporting/misbehaving walkers) haha.

And you're right there: while I'm used to the bugs, others aren't and it confuses those who are less experienced with the game. So options to add some new QOL features and a version of the game entirely that fixes some bugs, while the original is still available easily on GOG and Steam, means players basically have choices as to whether they want:
1) the newer modernised game with lots of bugs fixed
or
2) the older game that isn't necessarily as modern (although there's the widescreen patch to increase resolution) but with some bugs that you can work around over time.

One of the reasons Triskell decided on Pharaoh is just simply the fact that, out of the four in terms of sales, it gets the most and probably many people remember it more than the others, so its a good way to build a brand new engine to revive the entire series with authentic remakes.

All in all, its a real step towards perhaps a full revival of the Impressions Games' series (even some of their other games that we don't all remember nowadays) and even a remake of Emperor which has the most bugs of them all LOL

[This message has been edited by Sajuuk (edited 03-13-2022 @ 08:46 AM).]

Thanks for the update Sajuuk.

I understand what you mean about bug fixes. I guess that I just played enough that I kind of got used to them. It may even be that, for older players, some of the bugs have turned into exploits. I'm thinking mainly about worker/walker behaviour.

I suspect this remake will be of more interest to people who didn't play the game when it first came out. I understand that they could be put off by reports of bugs, no wide screen support, etc. I also suspect that the uptake by people who have the original game (maybe with the widescreen mod) may be quite low. I guess that's the developer's marketing judgement. Perhaps there could be some consideration for people how have a valid coy of the old game?

However, what could be really attractive would be if they then go on to develop new games of a similar style based on the new engine.

[This message has been edited by Asterix52 (edited 03-13-2022 @ 11:09 AM).]

I'm really tired of players calling things they don't like in a game to be bugs.

I’m unclear on how “bazaar traders, dancers, musicians and tax collectors teleporting all over the place and being unreliable on staying on a road” is not a bug, but that’s not me saying “i don’t like it”, the devs of ane have confirmed these are bugs that are fized by the course of the construction of the new game engine.

It’s worth saying that I myself have become accustomed to these bugs, but it doesn’t mean that I enjoy playing the game having to take them into account, and would prefer being able to build cities in the game without having to concern myself about whether a bazaar buyer is going to glitch out completely and never reach granaries or storage yards, due to road spawning bugs [which i have encouraged ar least 3-4 times, necessitating moving bazaars or creating wild road networks to get around the problem]

Of course, you’re not required to play pharaoh ane if you believe they’re fixing things you don’t consider as bugs, but many would consider that a teleporting bazaar trader and a dancer are indeed bugs that impact their enjoyment of playing the game

Plus, the unbalanced military missions are things that make military in Pharaoh frustrating for many players, and i welcome the opportunity for the ane devs to make Cleopatra missions winnable on Very Hard without cheese strategies due to overpowered chariots. 👍👍

[This message has been edited by Sajuuk (edited 03-14-2022 @ 07:59 AM).]

I guess this is a semantic issue. When I was a programmer, bugs (things that were wrong) were very important. Degrading the term "bug" seems silly to me, but maybe that's just me not keeping up with the times. I will use my definition of a bug in the rest of the reply, but if you'd rather have "bug" mean something broader then just ignore what I wrote.

Quoted from Sajuuk:

I’m unclear on how “bazaar traders, dancers, musicians and tax collectors teleporting all over the place and being unreliable on staying on a road” is not a bug

Because that is how bazaar traders, dancers, musicians, and tax collectors behave. Some players may not like that behavior, but that doesn't make it a bug.

Quoted from Sajuuk:

devs of ane have confirmed these are bugs that are fized

Do they have any evidence that they are bugs? They are changes that make the game simpler, and many players do like simpler games. (If I was working on that project, I might prefer to make the game simpler, if I thought it would increase sales.)

Quoted from Sajuuk:

many would consider that a teleporting bazaar trader and a dancer are indeed bugs

Of course, some players do like simpler games. That's fine. More power to them! But why call the original behavior a bug?

Quoted from Sajuuk:

Plus, the unbalanced military missions are things that make military in Pharaoh frustrating for many players

I like that a few missions, when played at Very Hard, are difficult. (I haven't yet played Khmun, and when I do I wouldn't be surprised if I lost. I think that's great. I am disappointed that there don't appear to be any standard peaceful missions that are similarly difficult, although I suppose some custom missions might be good.)

Again, some people would prefer a simpler game where you can win all missions at Very Hard relatively easily. Again, such a game might have more sales and, if so, would be preferred by developers. Again, is there any reason to consider the original difficulty a bug?


Now there are bugs in Pharaoh--meadow farms that harvest every month, delivering goods to a storage yard without decreasing the amount in the cart, free stuff, and plenty more. Most of us would want the actual bugs fixed--I hope they are, and new bugs aren't introduced. Some (perhaps most) would also like a simpler game, and that apparently will happen.

Just to step in here because I am curious, how is a dancer spawning on a road completely unconnected to the pavilion it's supposed to spawn in not considered a bug? Especially when it can be spawning in the pavilion for a long while but then when you place some roads nearby the dancer starts spawning on those roads instead.

Isn't the intended mechanic that entertainment walkers spawn in the pavilion and walk on the road the pavilion is built on? This was the biggest issue I had when playing through Pharaoh.

This doesn't seem like 'behaviour' as it's inconsistent. I don't see any logic to dancers spawning on nearby roads that aren't even connected to the pavilion it's spawning from, so when it comes to evidence that it's a bug, well ANE devs are talking to the Pharaoh lead, but also if we're asking for evidence then we'll also need evidence that this spawning inconsistency was intended in the first place.

If we're just assuming the game is 100% made as intended without evidence, then there's no point in any discussion. The assumption that they are bugs is an assumption, but saying it's intended is also an assumption as well unless we can ask the game's devs. My main thought is walkers spawning on unconnected roads and teleporting around or even just walking across water is buggy behaviour as it's inconsistent with what appears to be the intent.

Hi GamerZakh, welcome to Pharaoh Heaven.

Quoted from GamerZakh:

how is a dancer spawning on a road completely unconnected to the pavilion ... in not considered a bug?

Because that's how dancers behave.

Quoted from GamerZakh:

it can be spawning in the pavilion for a long while but then when you place some roads nearby the dancer starts spawning on those roads instead

Yes, roads placed near almost any building that generates a "random" walker can affect that walker.

Quoted from GamerZakh:

Isn't the intended mechanic that entertainment walkers spawn in the pavilion and walk on the road the pavilion is built on?

I don't remember reading anything like that, but my memory is poor.

Quoted from GamerZakh:

This doesn't seem like 'behaviour' as it's inconsistent

I don't know what you mean. StephAmon's Ambulomancy (lined from the opening post of Predicting Roaming Walks) pretty much explained how pavilion teleportation works. (Like many other things that have been discovered about Pharaoh, most players do not know the details.) I only remember using that information for a little while building Bubastis.

Quoted from GamerZakh:

we'll also need evidence that this ... was intended in the first place

I expect that a number of features were tried out, maybe modified, and accepted--what matters is what was intended in the last place.

If we're just assuming the game is 100% made as intended

That seems like a good general rule.

Sometimes something is clearly wrong (as the bugs mentioned in the last paragraph of reply #10), or that trade ships exit at the entry point in non-Cleopatra Pharaoh. While pavilion teleportation might not be desired by the original Pharaoh developers, I don't see any reason to assume that.

Quoted from GamerZakh:

it's inconsistent with what appears to be the intent

Again, I may have missed something, but I don't remember seeing anything about what was the intent.

Hmm I'm a little confused on the difference, could you explain? Why do you say those things that you do call bugs aren't intended? You said the teleporting walkers isn't a bug because that's how they behave. Then why not say meadow farms that harvest every month isn't a bug because that's how it behaves? It happens regularly enough for it to be an issue, so why is it a bug?

I'm just a little unclear on your distinction here because if the only reason is "it's not a bug because it's like that so we shouldn't assume", then nothing should be a bug because they're all like that. What if trade ships exiting at the entry point in non-Cleopatra Pharaoh isn't a bug?

What's the difference here?

[This message has been edited by GamerZakh (edited 03-14-2022 @ 03:49 PM).]

Meadow farms harvest every month (if they can) after a saved game is loaded onto an existing game, and not always then. It doesn't sound like an expected player action.

If trade ships exit at the entry point, why have a ship exit point? Doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry I brought this up.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 03-14-2022 @ 04:12 PM).]

Hi Brugle

Actually I am the one who brought this up, I guess, so don't be sorry. I have also been a programmer, and actually did some research on how you can write programs that are bug free, that is they behave exactly as intended by the programmer under all possible circumstances. If I remember correctly the conclusion was that either it is impossible or the program would be so slow that you would need a supercomputer to perform even a simple task.

Even within computer science the term "bug" is not uniquely defined and it certainly isn't in daily life. The problem is that it isn't a neutral term, it means there is something wrong, or at least strongely suggests so. Whether there actually is something wrong is largely a matter of opinion. Opinions can differ, it appears they do, fine. If we can avoid to be judgemental, even better.

As I see it the original game has some features that may have been intended to give the walkers in the game a form of artificial intelligence. They work up to a point and if you understand the features more deeply, you can beat the intelligence of the game. Whether you like that challenge, and how much effort you are willing to invest, is entirely a matter of individual choice.

As I said, I can understand not all players like the features, particularly if they result in unwanted behaviour that was not expected, and if this happens too often, turn their back on the game. If the redesigners want to make the game more accessible to a broader audience, I guess the primary discussion should be about what players intuitively expect a game to do and how the AI could accommodate that, rather than fixing a few of the most obnoxious things that catch the eye.

As I understand that has been done already and the result is Children of the Nile. I can imagine you can try to redesign the game to keep the original look and feel of Pharaoh, but IMHO you would still have to have that same discussion first. Maybe that has been done elsewhere, if not, we could have it here and now, if there is a quorum (which I doubt), and if we could have an open discussion (which would take some effort). As I stated, I am surprised that the redesigners expect it to be commercially viable. I wish them good luck.