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Topic Subject:Eternal cities layout - additional questions arised
Zipods
Pleb
posted 01-07-21 06:49 ET (US)         
In process of creating a few eternal cities according to the already known mechanics, I find out some new issues without clear answer:

1) There are "safe islands of population" which generate less than 1% of ghosts during 100 000 years cycle. For example, for average health, one of the island is 10,474-10,517. I asked myself, what happens, if the city has let's say 10,500 population standing inside "safe island", but then generate 27 ghosts in 2-3 ths. years resulting in the pop drop below the safe level (below 10,474). Would it collapse with increase generation of ghosts (dynamic self-recurse cycle?). Or census cycle will not change (static cycle)?

2) Specially designed cycled devolution/evolution of few houses in the city (let's say 1-2 GI out of 100 GI devolves to SI and back to GI in 1-2 month every 1-2 years). Can this technic allow decrease of overall ghost generation for eternal cities (or total avoidance maybe) in comparison with "rock-stable" city? It definitely influence on the census curve form, that is what I know. Also, can it provide a little MORE workforce in comparison with "rock-stable" city without any devolution/evolution?

3) 100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities. Are there any clear answers on the following:
3.1 Minimal required population;
3.2 Optimal compositions of housing types. My empiric feeling is that it shall be something like "large casa (small insulae) + large (gigantic) villa". This would release as much free workforce as possible. For this I would propose to use some factor (ratio), let's say "TOTAL workforce/workforce needed for 100 culture", and I feel that is is the highest for the mentioned house composition;
3.3 Optimal health level. My empiric feeling is average or good. Average health provide more workforce but also generate more schoolchildren and academy students. Good health provide 1% less workforce (for big cities it may be something like 50-70 less workers), but generates 2-3% less shoolchildren and students (for big cities it could be 4-5 schools less and 1 academy less (70-80 workforce less), almost the same as for average health).
3.4 For GI + LP only cities: what is the optimal ratio of patricians/plebes. In my empiric investigations (I even made some Excel spreadsheet for this! ) it could not ever exceed 10%, usually laying between 7-8%. So basically for 20,000 pop eternal 100 culture city the LP quantity could not ever exceed 10, and usual will be 7-8. At the same time, for non-eternal 20,000 100 culture city (LP+GI only), it is relatively easy to build 20-30 LP and still some free workforce may be the case.
3.5 The last but not least - the type of city to be chosen as a candidate for eternal city. My feeling the priority shall be the following: fishing cities in north climate-->fishing cities in south climate-->food import cities-->grain cities in south climate and the combinations of last three. By the way, it was very funny for me to discover, that some food import cities with 25/year grain import needs at least 1 additional warehouse for grain distribution and let's say 0.5 dock for ship arrival. In this case, attributable workforce will be 6+0.5*12=12. At the same time southern/desert farm for 25 cart/year production requires virtually 13 workers (only 1 more haha!!!). For "max optimal" case of "land caravan+40 carts/year+northern climate" the economy on workers will be 42-6=36. So basically the food import cities shall be good only for northern climate (and possibly there shall be 3 caravans in one batch for max effective trade). As a conclusion, I see the best candidates from original CCK maps as Londinium, Corinthus, Valentia, Tarraco, maybe Carthage.

Sorry for the super long thread. Would be grateful for some feedback from Brugle and other pro players of original C3.
AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-07-21 08:00 ET (US)     1 / 11       
10,500 population ... generate 27 ghosts in 2-3 ths. years ... Would it collapse with increase generation of ghosts
No. Assuming it was stable, a city of 10500 people at average health is highly likely to form a stable census cycle with no more ghosts (after generating less than 105 ghosts).
cycled devolution/evolution of few houses ... Can this technic allow decrease of overall ghost generation
I don't know if the rate of ghost generation would be slower, but it would never stop--eventually the city would collapse.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Minimal required population
It depends highly on how many workers provide food.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Optimal compositions of housing types
It may depend on how many workers generate goods. If most goods can be imported, I'd guess large insulae (with some grand insulae if the second food can be imported) and the minimum number of either grand villas or small palaces.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Optimal health level
It may depend on how many people you want, since stable populations depend on health.
average or good ... Good health provide 1% less workforce ... but generates 2-3% less shoolchildren and students
Good health has about 3% less workers, 9% less school kids, and 7% less academy students.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... For GI + LP only cities: what is the optimal ratio of patricians/plebes
Assuming you want the maximum workforce, around 3%.
Zipods
Pleb
posted 01-07-21 08:32 ET (US)     2 / 11       
10,500 population ... generate 27 ghosts in 2-3 ths. years ... Would it collapse with increase generation of ghosts
No. Assuming it was stable, a city of 10500 people at average health is highly likely to form a stable census cycle with no more ghosts (after generating less than 105 ghosts).
Clear. So in my eternal Massilia I should not be afraid of city collapse after 2,600 years?
I don't know if the rate of ghost generation would be slower, but it would never stop--eventually the city would collapse.
Not clear. What do you mean? My idea was that due to casual dev/evo, the census curve will change enough to increase probability of death of 100+ human (due to constant small inflow of immigrants) in comparison with rock-stable state. Why ghost generation "would never stop"?
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Minimal required population
It depends highly on how many workers provide food.
Not clear. I understand that basically this question is too fundamental (like what is best move in chess in particular complicated position in midgame): there are so many factors and their combinations that there would never be clear answer.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Optimal compositions of housing types
It may depend on how many workers generate goods. If most goods can be imported, I'd guess large insulae (with some grand insulae if the second food can be imported) and the minimum number of either grand villas or small palaces.
Not clear. Probably also too much fundamental...
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Optimal health level
It may depend on how many people you want, since stable populations depend on health.
Not cleat.
Do you know this at least for example for these three pop ranges:
10000-11000
15000-16000
21000+ (limited to walkers limit for 100 culture).
average or good ... Good health provide 1% less workforce ... but generates 2-3% less schoolchildren and students
Good health has about 3% less workers, 9% less school kids, and 7% less academy students.
Not clear.
You are right about percentages. Under my 1% I meant the difference between 0.305 (average health) to 0.296 (for good health), which is 3% in relative value as you said (and same for schoolchildren and students). But still not clear, what is the optimal one? For at least mentioned pop ranges.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... For GI + LP only cities: what is the optimal ratio of patricians/plebes
Assuming you want the maximum workforce, around 3%.
Clear. So, if you agree with my upper limit as 8%, at least the patrician pop ratio range for 100 culture eternal cities is defined as 3%-8% with obviously the lowest as most optimal.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-07-21 11:05 ET (US)     3 / 11       
in my eternal Massilia I should not be afraid of city collapse after 2,600 years?
If it was stable, it would form 49 more ghosts (in addition to the 1 already present). But it is not stable--3 grand insulae run out of oil and devolve in Jun 271 AD.
I don't know if the rate of ghost generation would be slower, but it would never stop--eventually the city would collapse.
Not clear. What do you mean?
A ghost forms when someone reaches 100 years at the same time when someone else is 90-99 years. This is hard to avoid. When new immigrants enter, there is randomness in their ages, so sometimes a ghost will form. There's no way to stop it.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Minimal required population
It depends highly on how many workers provide food.
Not clear.
One city has 120 workers making food, another has 400. The second city will need significantly more people (which might make it use a higher "island").
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Optimal compositions of housing types
It may depend on how many workers generate goods. If most goods can be imported, I'd guess large insulae (with some grand insulae if the second food can be imported) and the minimum number of either grand villas or small palaces.
Not clear.
The only reason to prefer small casas over large insulae is the lower entertainment and not needing goods. The extra entertainment might be satisfied without extra workers. If the goods are imported, the only workers (outside of entertainment, if any) are in warehouses and maybe extra markets. Large insulae will need considerably fewer patricians for Prosperity 100, so are probably better than small casas in this case.
100 culture+100 prosperity for eternal cities ... Optimal health level
It may depend on how many people you want, since stable populations depend on health.
Not cleat.
Do you know this at least for example for these three pop ranges:
10000-11000
15000-16000
21000+
No. I don't consider Culture 100 to be as important as some other things, such as Prosperity 100. (Also, I have some preference for better health.) If you're interested, do the calculations.

But say you want to have around 6000 people. If you don't have good health then you'll need a lot more people.
average or good ... Good health provide 1% less workforce ... but generates 2-3% less schoolchildren and students
Good health has about 3% less workers, 9% less school kids, and 7% less academy students.
Not clear ... what is the optimal one?
If you're interested, do the calculations.
Zipods
Pleb
posted 01-07-21 16:53 ET (US)     4 / 11       
in my eternal Massilia I should not be afraid of city collapse after 2,600 years?
If it was stable, it would form 49 more ghosts (in addition to the 1 already present). But it is not stable--3 grand insulae run out of oil and devolve in Jun 271 AD.
???
That's very strange. I do not believe that C3 works differently on different computers and systems, so I don't understand how that happens. I had a free run till 290 AD and saved game in Dec 270. No devolution happens during this time. I may send it to you, if necessary.

However, I admit that oil and pottery distribution system is not perfect, because priority dispatch warehouse is in the city part which consume less goods. For really long cycles it MAY CAUSE devolution in future, I agree with this statement. So I changed a warehouse orders to get goods and the olives warehouse to accept oil, and then it seems to work perfectly well. Already has a free run with the made changes till 430 AD and no devolution happened. The census curve stabilizes and the ghost formation is exactly the same as in C3 utilities as it should be.

Question: How long free run is needed to consider city truly eternal? 1 000 ? 10 000 years? I do not have any script to click on "stormy sea" message and to send gifts to Emperor every 10 years so it may be a bit time consuming for me to run for 100 000 years. I have 20 sec/year on 100% speed, so 1000 years will be 5.5 hours + 1-2 hours for clicking and gift sending (this is totally real in few days). 10 000 years will be 60-70 hours (this is much harder, but still doable in a weeks-months). So I will probably run my city for 2-3 ths. years and then post the resulting city in Completed city section. Than hope for some new feedback.

With respect to advice "do calculation" - thanks for it. I will probably do. I just was thinking you already know some more concrete things about this and will share some ready figures.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-07-21 19:36 ET (US)     5 / 11       
in my eternal Massilia I should not be afraid of city collapse after 2,600 years?
If it was stable, it would form 49 more ghosts (in addition to the 1 already present). But it is not stable--3 grand insulae run out of oil and devolve in Jun 271 AD.
???
That's very strange ... I had a free run till 290 AD and saved game in Dec 270. No devolution happens during this time. I may send it to you, if necessary.
Did you start with an unmodified saved game from your submission?

I also have a saved game from right before the devolution, in early Jun 271AD. The market (east end of large island) is out of oil, and the 3 grand insulae about it devolve later in the month. At this point the city is 91 employees short and some of the oil workshops are partially staffed.

Please send the Dec 270 and the 290AD saved games to the address in my profile.
How long free run is needed to consider city truly eternal?
I wouldn't consider your city eternal, since the player has to send gifts to Rome.

However, given that you accept frequent intervention, I would wait at least until the census is pretty much stabilized (which would take a few hundred more years). It would be better to wait until all ghosts have formed.
Zipods
Pleb
posted 01-08-21 06:01 ET (US)     6 / 11       

Did you start with an unmodified saved game from your submission?


Of course it IS modified as I wrote in the download section description that curve is not fully formed, so 100 workers will blew out which is clearly reflected in your observation
At this point the city is 91 employees short and some of the oil workshops are partially staffed
The modification included deleting of excess academies and schools to have ca. 2870-2910 workforce needed (as mentioned in the submitted file description). That's all modifications. I did not touch any critical infrastructure, like road grid, distribution system, food production, wharfs,... It is obvious that 6 oil workshops has to be fully staffed as 25 olives has just-as-needed production to satisfy consumption (100 GI+4LP has 24.96 consumption).

If you did have the workers shortage then it is clearly the reason of devolution, so I suppose there is no point to exchange files.
However, given that you accept frequent intervention, I would wait at least until the census is pretty much stabilized (which would take a few hundred more years). It would be better to wait until all ghosts have formed.
I will post the "updated version" of Massilia in Jan 2021 AD . Hope it is enough. Now already have free run till 825 AD (with small modifications: more precise ratio of tax/wages to avoid millions on account, changing of warehouses orders, added 1 pottery workshop to have overproduction, added 1 prefecture as I had accidential fire in around 425 AD LOL). The ghost pattern is the same as predicted by C3 utilities (somehow it decrease from 51 to 49 ) Let's see what happens till 2021 AD, but I am pretty sure that after mentioned modifications the city would be stable for eternity.

As for the gifts - I took Massilia on purpose as I like this city very much and I consider it is not the best candidate for eternal city with respect to free workforce to create some self-chellange. I am a bit sad that the formal "gifting intervention" makes difference for you.

For the next city I will use CCK map (probably Londinium) with eternal 50 Favor and no pop up messages for long run.

P.S. Thanks for the advice! By the way, maybe I will also try 1 granary Massilia, as I like this city and I suppose this is some kind of challenge especially without using looping/forced walkers design method. Would be especially hard to make 100cul+100pros ETERNAL 1 granary Massilia (sounds for me as impossible, but maybe you will try?).
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-08-21 07:42 ET (US)     7 / 11       
Of course it IS modified as I wrote in the download section
Sorry, I missed the "(deleting of some academies required)" phrase. I suppose I just assumed that a "Truly Eternal" city would not require deletion of buildings to keep it running. My suggestion, if you want to save a city in such a situation, is to already delete enough academies so that it can run with minimum interventions, and to indicate to the user (perhaps with 3x3 squares of small statues) where the academies can be replaced once the census stabilizes.
The ghost pattern is the same as predicted by C3 utilities (somehow it decrease from 51 to 49 )
As I wrote in reply #3, the city would have a total of 50 ghosts (including any that are already present). If your total ghost prediction is different, it isn't "the same as predicted by C3 utilities". Perhaps there was some devolution and reevolution that you didn't notice?
I consider it is not the best candidate for eternal city with respect to free workforce to create some self-chellange
That's true--Valentia is probably better--but if you want Culture 100, Massilia is one of the best because not too many workers are needed to produce food.
I am a bit sad that the formal "gifting intervention" makes difference for you.
A city that is eternal except for interventions to increase Favor does not interest me. You are probably aware that I am designing Rebel Lugdunum, which (if it works) will be eternal.
Would be especially hard to make 100cul+100pros ETERNAL 1 granary Massilia (sounds for me as impossible, but maybe you will try?).
Again, I have no interest in building a city that is eternal except for interventions to increase Favor. (And, as you said, it may be impossible.) I expect to build 1 Granary Massilia after Rebel Lugdunum.
Zipods
Pleb
posted 01-08-21 09:06 ET (US)     8 / 11       
About academies deleting - agreed. Perhaps I shall describe this in more clear way but I always want to make cities requiring some additional small actions from the one who download them. For eternal cities it is probably bad idea...

About eternal and let's call it "Rebel Massilia" - I think if Rebel Lugdunum will work, I do not see any obstacles why Massilia or any other city would not. This shall be mostly a question of towers quantities, their optimal positioning, some non-pretty tent-getto behind them to provide labor access/additional workforce and some defined minimal distance from the entry point (some cities layouts are so close to entry point that towers would never work). Looks easy, but it is really not. Considering your strict requirement of abandoning any kind of human intervention, even a single touch of a wall/tower by 1 unit among all Caesar legions every let's say 1000 years will destroy such rebel cities in probably 10-20 ths. years (obviously because of exponential snowballing). So good luck in Rebel Lugdunum! Despite it has perfect landscape to kill legions, still a lot of planning and re-planning and re-planning needed to find optimal towers layout.

P.S.
I will post Massilia in 2021AD in a few days.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-08-21 09:34 ET (US)     9 / 11       
I think if Rebel Lugdunum will work, I do not see any obstacles why Massilia or any other city would not.
I do. Towers have to be fairly close to enemies (12 tiles maybe) and fire slowly. It might be impossible to prevent a large force of legionaries from destroying a tower they could get to.
some non-pretty tent-getto
If there's space (and there should be in Massilia), there's no reason not to have better houses. (Rebel Lugdunum would be much easier and more likely to work if houses could be as poor as medium insulae.)
a lot of planning and re-planning and re-planning needed to find optimal towers layout
I did a lot of defense tests. (That is one of my two uses of "future history" in Rebel Lugdunum.) I doubt my tower layout is optimal, but it does seem good enough and is (in my opinion) pretty.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-11-21 09:51 ET (US)     10 / 11       
You may think it fun to upload an rar file that some players cannot read. I think it would be better to follow the Download "submit file" instructions and upload a zip file.

Your Massilia is not stable. At least one devolution occurred between 309 and 1500. A devolution occurred in 1653, losing 20 people and regaining them two months later. I think it highly likely that your city will continue to have occasional devolution, form more ghosts, and eventually collapse.

And, of course, it cannot be "truly eternal" since it requires intervention to raise Favor.
mt7juans
Pleb
posted 01-11-21 09:58 ET (US)     11 / 11       
3.2 Optimal compositions of housing types. My empiric feeling is that it shall be something like "large casa (small insulae) + large (gigantic) villa". This would release as much free workforce as possible.
Hello!
If you want to be compact, you are in the right direction with small insulae housing.
It affords the player to provision 2 types of food and that makes the markets so much more efficient. So much so, reducing their deployment by half since they will be able to serve and resupply both food sources, concurrently, is an option.
If you are good with market placement, a single market can do a lot of round trips to the granary in a single month and never run empty. The idea is how often you can manage a drop to the granary if market ladies walk 53 tiles in a single month. You can get away with so little entertainment and food venues when housing is at the 'small insulae' level. I think it is some sort of a golden nugget in the game.

[This message has been edited by mt7juans (edited 01-11-2021 @ 10:00 AM).]

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