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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Caesar III: Game Help » Reliable Market Long (Forced) Walker Technique without Gatehouses
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Topic Subject:Reliable Market Long (Forced) Walker Technique without Gatehouses
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-03-20 16:45 ET (US)         
Long (forced) walkers can be fun, but there is a problem when houses are medium insulae or better and the walk is long, since houses store no more than 2-months of some goods. Typically, a trader wanders around then takes the long walk back to her market, so the total time taken on her walks varies. Therefore, even when traders are initially spaced evenly, that usually won't last and traders will eventually be far enough apart to allow house devolution. This can be made rare by building lots of markets, but that's a pain.

A market trader can always take the same time on each walk by using a gatehouse to prevent her from wandering around by only giving her one tile of road. (Also, traders don't waste time wandering around.) With traders from multiple fully staffed markets traveling the same distance, they can keep their even spacing. (Traders did this in Palace Peaks.) But gatehouses are ugly and aren't allowed in some missions. (I've done this for bazaars in several Pharaoh missions, since roadblocks function like gatehouses, are not as ugly, and are usually allowed.)

A "target" for a random walker (such as a market trader) may be different in each of the four cycles of walks. The target is a road that is close to 8 tiles to the NE, SE, SW, or NW of the north tile of the building. It is defined more precisely in reply #15 of Randomness of Random Walkers. (It is also defined for Pharaoh walkers in Ambulomancy, linked from the opening post of Predicting Roaming Walks, and the target for C3 walkers is the same except that the search around the "routing center" stops as soon as a road tile is found whether or not it is connected to the starting point.)

A trader begins her walk by going toward her target. If she has gone 25 tiles without reaching her target, after another tile she will go to the finishing tile of her walk. If the first 26 tiles of her walk is along the long walk for all four cycles, she will go the same distance on each walk. If the traders from all markets travel the same distance, they can be evenly spaced.

The usual arrangement for a long walk has markets between two roads running SW-NE. A trader starts on the more SE road and finishes on the more NW road. A buyer starts on the more SE road, obtains food and goods from nearby granaries and warehouses, and finishes at her starting point. Farms should be close to the granaries (especially non-northern wheat farms), probably to the E and S of the granaries.

With the more NW road long enough and connected to a road somewhat to the NW, the targets are set up to make the trader start along the long walk during the NE, SW, and NW cycles. But with a typical arrangement, the SE cycle target is down with the farms, which causes the trader to wander around. Bad!

Farms deliver to the center of a granary. However, a buyer obtains food from a road along the side of a granary. My technique is connect the more SE of the two roads to the road to the E of the N tile of the granary and to connect the more NW of the two roads to the center of the granary and the farms.

The first reply has an example.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-03-2020 @ 05:58 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-03-20 16:47 ET (US)     1 / 15       
This is part of my No Clinic Capua at the end of the first year (with N up-left):

Legend
The three roads at the right of the diagram are connected together some distance away.

The 2 market traders and 5 priests take long walks by all houses. The traders are 48 tiles and a little over 95 tiles apart. Later, 4 more markets will be beside the existing ones, with all traders about 24 tiles apart. Also later, a bath girl, surgeon, barber, librarian, teacher, actor (from theater), and gladiator (from amphitheater) will take long walks by all houses. ("Confused" long walks by a tax collector, engineer, or entertainer are not discussed.)
mt7juans
Pleb
posted 05-16-20 12:12 ET (US)     2 / 15       
I just signed up!
I found out about forced walking the market distributors on Lugdunum from previous gameplay. I was playing v1.0, then, and wasn't much impressed. Return walking distances were inefficient since I couldn't split the east and west forced roads efficiently due to lack of open space to lay the west return road near the native lands as the west road needs to go down 'south' in order to work properly.
I have streamlined just how much they need to pass a palace house looking at your previous contexts. It seems to be '5' trips of goods and '3' for food are required every 2 months. It rounds up to 1 market for every 2 palaces and 7-8 markets to maintain full levels in the distribution route.
However, the game mechanics are not up for forced walking distribution. Luxury palace houses consume 10 times the amount of food every month than goods. The only time it doesn't is when medium insulae houses do not cluster that it is 1:1 food versus goods consumption which is highly inefficient. At palace level, food makes almost 91% of what they ferry.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-16-20 13:42 ET (US)     3 / 15       
Hi mt7juans, welcome to Caesar III Heaven.
Lugdunum ... Return walking distances were inefficient since
I didn't follow the explanation, but it doesn't matter. Lugdunum allows gatehouses, which make it easier to build efficient housing blocks.
how much they need to pass a palace house ... It seems to be '5' trips of goods and '3' for food are required every 2 months
A trader from a market that is stocked needs to pass by a medium insula or better house more often, about every 1.5 months or less. However, a market buyer needs to make far fewer trips. Since a buyer gets 200 units (2 cartloads) each trip (assuming the warehouse has 2 cartloads), and a palace uses 4 units of wine and 2 units of each other good per month, for one palace a buyer needs to make 5 trips every 100 months to obtain goods. As you said, the buyer needs to get food considerably more often.
It rounds up to 1 market for every 2 palaces
I have built cities with 4 luxury palaces per market, both using long walks and not.
mt7juans
Pleb
posted 05-16-20 17:38 ET (US)     4 / 15       
Hello Brugle,
I didn't follow the explanation, but it doesn't matter. Lugdunum allows gatehouses, which make it easier to build efficient housing blocks.
What I mean is the market buyer and seller should take different length paths. I figured this out later.
A trader from a market that is stocked needs to pass by a medium insula or better house more often, about every 1.5 months or less.
Over two months, the buyer can cross 112 tiles maximally. It goes both directions, to and from, so only traverses 56 squares in total. The seller on the other hand, is following the same forced walk uninterrupted. This places an upper limit to forced walking efficiency. The buyer needs a shorter path, or else the trader won't deliver the food which is 91% of the essentials. If we placed the market to be in striking distance to both the granary and the warehouse, it would make 10x food supplies versus 1x goods. That leaves '5' squares distance for the buyer to supply her market 11 times for two months over the period the market trader had forced walked in the same interval.

On Lugdunum, the market buyer needs a connection to granaries from the west, however there is not enough space for the return loop to make a fold at the foot of the elevation ramp, so I couldn't place the granary and warehouses there. Any other place increases the distance the market buyer has to cover and the trader starts walking on empty handed, defeating the purpose of forced walking the market traders.
I have built cities with 4 luxury palaces per market, both using long walks and not.
I'm still figuring things out.

[This message has been edited by mt7juans (edited 05-16-2020 @ 05:40 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-16-20 18:42 ET (US)     5 / 15       
Over two months, the buyer can cross 112 tiles maximally. It goes both directions, to and from, so only traverses 56 squares in total.
Over two months, the buyer can travel almost 106.7 tiles. It traverses 53 tiles total.

In general, don't let the buyer go that far. (In the city I'm building now, no buyer traverses over 12 tiles each way to get food or a good.)
the trader won't deliver the food which is 91% of the essentials
For a seller, food is usually not a problem. A house tries to store at least 8 months of food, or 16 months if there are 2 foods, or 24 months if there are 3 foods. But a house tries to store no more than 2 months of furniture. It's much easier for a house to run out of a good than to run out of a food.
On Lugdunum, the market buyer needs a connection to granaries from the west, however there is not enough space
Maybe some day I'll try building Lugdunum using long market trader walks. The "career" Lugdunum is my favorite mission by far, but I've never tried it with long walks.
defeating the purpose of forced walking the market traders
If you find long (forced) walks to be a problem, don't use them.
mt7juans
Pleb
posted 05-16-20 19:33 ET (US)     6 / 15       
A house tries to store at least 8 months of food, or 16 months if there are 2 foods, or 24 months if there are 3 foods.
I thought it was 6, 3/3, 2/2/2 mo worth of individual food types at each delivery. It makes it easier from the point of the market trader.
But a house tries to store no more than 2 months of furniture. It's much easier for a house to run out of a good than to run out of a food.
That is good for market traders per se. Food types are less diverse than goods. You have to deliver wine every month.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-17-20 04:56 ET (US)     7 / 15       
You have to deliver wine every month.
Oil and wine are like furniture--a house tries to store no more than 2 months worth (except that a grand villa stores up to 4 months worth of wine). As I said, I recommend that a trader from a stocked market pass by a medium insula or better house about every 1.5 months or less.
Agnostic
Pleb
posted 01-11-21 18:29 ET (US)     8 / 15       
Hi Brugle,

Could you please explain, in the long forced loop, when the markets are between the two parallel roads (like in your ni clinic Capua), for market ladies to keep the same distance between them (not taking detours, just sticking to the forced loop road), where we shouldn't build the road compared to markets, or where we must put road tiles, because sometimes market traders makes a little detour and that messes up distance between them.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-11-21 19:14 ET (US)     9 / 15       
Hi Agnostic, welcome to Caesar III Heaven.

I explained this briefly in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of the opening post. Basically, the market trader, on each of her walks, must go on the same path she would use to get to her finishing point for at least 26 tiles. After 26 times, she will head for her finishing point.

This is not an easy technique--as far as I know, I am the only player to use it. You must know how random walkers start their walks, which I found to be difficult. (For example, you should be able to tell, after building a school, which direction each of the 4 school kids will take.) Most players, including most good players, don't know it.
trolgu
Pleb
posted 01-12-21 06:04 ET (US)     10 / 15       
I have tried forced market traders in E-Tarsus.
But somehow I find it strange that the lady doesn't just return, but takes a very long way just to jump through the window in the corner of her market
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-12-21 08:14 ET (US)     11 / 15       
I have tried forced market traders in E-Tarsus.
Darn! I just downloaded and looked at your E-Tarsus, hoping to see a use of my technique. I guess you rebuilt it to be same old same old.
But somehow I find it strange that the lady doesn't just return, but takes a very long way just to jump through the window in the corner of her market
Like any other market trader, she follows the shortest route back to the coffee break room.

I have always been bugged by the phrase "lazy market ladies", since I consider them to be the hardest workers. In No Clinic Capua, they are just working a little harder.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 01-12-2021 @ 08:18 AM).]

Agnostic
Pleb
posted 01-13-21 05:07 ET (US)     12 / 15       
Thanks for answering my question Brugle, could you also explain why do you use 6 markets for 137 tile loop? Does less markets can't buy enough goods for 5.000 people, because the distance from granary and warehouse is too far away, or you like having more markets just to be sure?
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-13-21 06:34 ET (US)     13 / 15       
why do you use 6 markets for 137 tile loop?
That was the most I could fit, with the roads as built. (There were other personal goals which also had to be satisfied.) The Ceres temple is in line with the markets and its priest follows a long walk, so one might think that it could be changed into a market, but on two of its walks it "makes a little detour" and wouldn't be synchronized.
Does less markets can't buy enough goods for 5.000 people
Those markets can easily buy enough food and goods. The problem is preventing houses from running out of a good, which would require several markets in a row to be out of the same good. This would only happen if all of those markets were too busy getting other things to get more of that good. This is unlikely to happen, but I don't know how to calculate it.
Daearius
Pleb
posted 01-29-21 18:09 ET (US)     14 / 15       
Hi Brugle, really interesting work, this is what I'm trying now, blockless housing blocks, I still need to figure several things out, probably with ambulomancy I can Improve it



Basically Each block try to be almost 1500 citizens (17 Medium Insulae, this map lack Oil otherwise it would be 17 Grand Insulae)

The idea is to get Perfect Coverage of all citizes
so 1 Coliseum, 3 theathes, 2 amphiteathers, 3 schools, 2 libraries, 1 large temple per type

The idea is simple

1 Rectangular shape with housing inside
1 spiral path inside that leads to colisem
Markets outside, granaries and warehouses between housing blocks
Addictional structures placed outside if needed, otherwise outer ring provide access to labor force.

Currently works good with 4/5 markets.

Unluckily I realized this way of building is really labor force inefficient, I have to stay really carefull on Engineer's posts and market and fountains numbers otherwise I cannot get Industry, I'm thinking on getting 18 Medium Insulae, but that would make perfect coverage Odd.

Initially the markets where inside, but they never covered the whol spiral path. (in the picture you see the last block experiment, on the minimap you can see the current one (internal spiral surround a 17x6 rectangle)
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 01-30-21 05:45 ET (US)     15 / 15       
Daearius,
Please do not put off-topic posts in a thread. If you want to discuss your new block, either make a new thread or put it in an appropriate thread (perhaps one for housing blocks).
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