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Roman Lutetia

Author File Description
File Details
Campaign: Peaceful
Rank: Consul
Mission: Open play
Difficulty: Hard
Population: 19400+1200
Culture rating: 45
Prosperity rating: 100
Peace rating: 100
Favor rating: 99
The goal was to create the most beautiful and realistic looking city as it could possibly be in Caesar 3. Decided to share the result I've got. Of course, a lot of potential for improvement, not the kind of perfection I wanted to see, but still I suppose it has some portion of a beauty.
Starting point is Feb 33 AD - just before Jesus Christ was killed - feel it in the game.

Some important info for keeping city stable:
1) City is balanced but close to "walkers" and "data" limits. Further construction is limited and shall be optimized;
2) Culture rating "45" is low but can be easily improved with building "culture park" disconnected (!!!) from the city. I recommend NOT to add even 2-3 theaters CONNECTED to the city road system, it could cause problems...
3) Unemployment is 15%. Increasing to 19% shortly (+1200 pop in few months). This may be used for improvement of culture rating and other things (more palaces, more vegetable farms, as there is some scarcity in vegetables :), etc...)
4) Problem of "population aging" - it is not big deal for 3-4 years in a row, then workforce starting to drop down dramatically. The real scarcity of workers is starting from 43-44 AD, then it mysteriously stabilizes on 0-5% unemployment for long time (I tested it till 54 AD). I still recommend to address it through standard deleting-building of housing in the "plebeian part" - North-East part of the city.
5) Long-travelling cart pushers - as city is realistic and thus ALL CONNECTED this happens. Could be addressed by separation of two parts - plebeian and patrician, but it requires division of centralized industrial park in two industrial parks - each for plebeians and patricians. Could be done easily though.

Enjoy and comment if you like it!

P.S. The map template specially created by me could be accessed in "Scenarios" section (refer to Roman Lutetia by Zipods).

P.P.S Beware of INTERSECTIONS!!! :)
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AuthorComments & Reviews   ( All | Comments Only | Reviews Only )
counting The aging caused worker shortage starts to wear off in about 20 years in-game is due to it starts with below average health level, so older generation beyond 50 died off fast, and the newborns with peak population at the beginning will join the workforce in 20 years. But it won't last long though since you give everyone clinic access, the health level will climb back to almost perfect at 35AD which over time will decrease the newborn thus eventually less available workforce (older population won't die the higher the health level)

Although the long term expected workforce at below average is around 4300 only, which is 500+ short if it runs for hundreds of years. Tuning health to average will still only give the highest amount about 4650 workers, still 200 short. Quite a bit of worker optimization is required to make it long term stability (like too many industries, merging some houses to reduce goods consumption, too many temples, prefectures, bathhouses). And probably too many luxury palaces considering the workforce required. Or drop some Grand Insula to Large Insula (they house the same amount of people) to reduce goods required, and wheat can feed more people per farm here.

[Edited on 01/15/20 @ 09:58 PM]

File Author
Thanks for the interest to my efforts. I agree with every point!

Regarding palaces - it is 27 now, I even thought about increasing. :) Just wanted to make the patrician part as large as possible. Also wanted plebeian part to be as developed as possible, that's why I bothered with those vegetables (I estimate that really like 200 workers may become unemployed if only wheat is used for plebes). I even had 3 (!) food types (with pigs!) at first, but then cut it to two types.

Industry not "may" but "should" be optimized - I really think that division of the city is the best for this (cutting this WIDE road between two parts) as the main consumption is in plebeian part.

Also there are too much warehouses, some of them may be deleted and optimized.

After some moment in game (around 20 AD) when population was around 18 000 and I was afraid to reach walkers limit, I just was focused to build up all this gardens and statues to make it somewhat beautiful. I think it appear to be not too ugly. Good to see your attempt
counting 3rd food type doesn't help the plebeian houses if you supply them all 3, only the first 2 priority food types (wheat, vegetable here) are consumed (assume you have enough in the market). But the production of the vegetable isn't enough to feed all the northern part of the city's 2x2 housing to Grand Insula though, and wheat production is over (assume the city is disconnected so wheat farm cart pushers won't loop the long way around to the place granaries)

I've inspected the save file and run statistic utility to check the number of walkers. At the time of the save file, there are 769 walkers (77 are immigrants), 101 cart pushers. I run it to 35 AD, it's around 700 walkers most of the time (with less than 10 immigrants plus homeless), but still more than 100 cart pushers. Hence the city still has plenty of room for more walkers, and disconnected the city to make cart pushers shorten their travel around will help to a degree. And there are 1600 buildings hence also still some room for expansion as well (especially if you can merge or reduce some unnecessary services)

If you don't concern about long-term stability, then this city certainly can support more than 27 Luxury Palaces (many more if you don't care plebeian house level)

[Edited on 01/18/20 @ 08:49 AM]

File Author
Thanks, Counting!

I really appreciate your scientific-based approach based on facts! Wanted to say that I posted the city with some things to do on purpose, so that you don't need just to look at it :)

I really wonder that only 700 walkers are here. I did not check it and my feeling was like 1500+ walkers. Thanks for the preciseness, so now I will not be afraid of exceeding the limit!

I still don't understand how some things are working in this city:

1) If I am trying to upgrade the line of shacks in the patrician part (line of large shacks with wells near the farms), then the palaces are starting to lack entertainment. Could you explain this?

1a) As a consequence of (1), this "lacking entertainment problem" influences immediately on pleb part, so ALL Grand insulae instantly decreasing to Large insulae with request to have more entertainment.

2) If I am trying to add some cultural buildings (theaters, schools) WITHIN the city road network, some of the districts also starting to lack some services randomly. Pretty strange, right? Do you have any idea, what's this?

3) Long term stability. Is there any practical way to have a city which will not require any interaction (like deleting-building of plebeian housing) for the period of like minimum 100 years. In other words, is there a practical way to solve the "aging" problem other than periodical renewal of plebeian housing?
counting If you have some basic programming knowledge, you can check any save file statistic yourself, there is a program in the Utility Programs download called "Trium's C3 / Pharaoh Utilities".

Not all walkers exit their building and "exist" on the map simultaneously, and some buildings don't generate walkers. So even if you have 1600 buildings, it doesn't mean you will get all the walkers associate with them out all at once, and some buildings don't generate walkers at all. The number of walkers on the map is always fructuating, and your city has a pretty wide range of variations (from lower than 700 to nearly 800)

About entertainment value, there is a thread on the discussion forum just called Entertainment by Theo has a good summary of how it works. Simply put, there is a city-wide entertainment value based on the venue/population ratio (the coverage value shown on the Entertainment Adviser), if you don't add enough entertainment venues it will have an overall effect on how much entertainment value each house received.

Schools generate school children pretty often each one with 4. If you just add 10, it is 40 walkers, 20 it is 80, it's one of the most walker costly buildings (especially if you build them all at once so they all send out around the same time). Entertainment buildings connected to their training facilities will also generate quite a lot of entertainers along the way, especially on a very long trip, you might have several entertainers on the way for "each" added entertainment building, they might also add up the walker count a lot. You probably only have a safe margin of walkers around 200, so say if by chance most granaries are full at some point and ended up having quite a bit cart pushers out idle, they will quickly all add up to the walker limit. On top of that, entertainment facilities on and off shows have delays to change to different kinds of entertainers, this might create varied service patterns for existing entertainers, especially if you overload training facilities, you will get erratic entertainer service periods. For a large population city, it's probably easier to just not providing entertainment training facilities at all, and rely solely on the default entertainment wondering walkers (except hippodrome, chariots are fast and you can only build one anyway, or learned how to control wondering walker through other means)

Finally, about the aging problem, the simplest way to achieve a stable census is to control the city health level (shown on the chief advisor screen description). By limiting the clinic access to just some houses, and replace others' health access requirement with hospitals. Drop health level to about below average to good level would cause people over working age to die early, hence, in turn, a higher amount of working-age population when the population's census is stabilized over time (about 1/3 to 1/2 of the population has access to clinics will give you average health level, try to make everything stable as a rock). There is a post called "Are there any truly eternal cities in Caesar 3" has a pretty in-depth discussion about aging mechanics. (I have a city in the complete cities download run to 100,000 AD, so yes, you can build a city without interventions at all for hundreds if not thousands of years). However, you need to optimize the workforce quite a bit, since under a stable census, the percentage of the workforce is roughly below 30% of the plebian population in the long run, and for an existing city like this to transit to a stable census it would need to pass a vast workforce shortage period over decades at least.

[Edited on 01/19/20 @ 12:40 AM]

File Author
OMG, what a comprehensive answer!

I did not understand completely the reason of Entertainment fall down problem though, but thanks a lot!

Btw, did you already tested the "maximum possible debt" city? :)
counting The entertainment points a house received has two components, service points from entertainers passing by (constitute up to 80 points) and coverage points from the overall city coverage of all the entertainment venues coverage percentage (constitute up to 20 points). The coverage points are based on venues/population index ratio, hence when you evolve some shakes to increase the population without adding more venues, the coverage points derived from coverage ratio dropped (denominator increases, fraction value drops), thus the combined service+coverage a house received drops.

maximum possible debts in practical terms or theoretical? I have designed cities that have multiple automatic defenses against Caesar Legions and from what I can tell, it passes every time for thousands of years (already in millions in debt, but unlike positive income, every time you anger and defeat Caesar's Legions, there are notifications, haven't found a way to turn all that off yet, and auto-clicker sometimes froze, so I couldn't just let it run for weeks), not sure whether it will fail or not at some points in the future, but if it could hold very very long enough, then it should reach the maximum possible numerical value that can be registered by the Dinari variable (+ - 2^31 IIRC since it is built using 32 bits compiler? not 100% sure)

[Edited on 01/25/20 @ 03:49 PM]

File Author
OK, now it is clear with the entertainment. So I need to build just a bit MORE venues, regardless where, if trying upgrade some of those poor people in shacks.

Maximum possible debt issue - that's incredible that you managed to run city for thousands years. Will be good to see this city somewhere. Of course the maximum possible (theoretical) will be more impressive. -2^31 shall be the right figure as it was already run for maximum possible money on account, right? So the minimum shall be symmetrical. :)
counting You can find my test city running to 100,000 AD in the download, called "City at 100,000 AD".

The massive debt one I didn't upload it since it really isn't fun running it with all the notification clicking (and clearing). And it is pretty easy to confirm the theoretical upper and lower limits by editing save files. It's just very tedious to actually run a city to reach that, and it is just like any other passive defense city (you can find plenty of them) with high enough population to reach stable census so no ghosts would form for almost indefinitely. An easy way to achieve perfect defense is to edit the map so there is only a very narrow choke point with winding passage to Rome, and spots for towers along the passage to kill everything. Fun to design but not to watch, to be honest.
File Author
OK, got it!

Seems your encyclopedic knowledge is as eternal as your eternal cities!

Is it possible for "max debt test" to use City builder city taking the city where 50 Favor is automatically renew each month? Then Caesar's legions shall not attack, right?

After all, I think more about unrevealed "cracking" of C3, so much of them still in place:

1) How to programme 3 caravans passing the city? Usually there are 2 caravans, but there are some cities (i.e. Londinium in city builder), where there are 3 caravans. I once made the new map in map editor after loading the Londinium and 3 caravans arrived suddenly in a new map created by me. :)

2) Full-warehouse trading problem. Very often traders (caravans) does not fill in warehouse at full even if they has still what to sell. For example most of olive trading WAREHOUSE limit is 28-32 (each warehouse or separate), iron never comes over 16 I suppose. Timber also is not traded to full like 10 warehouses in the city. Do you know how to fix it?
2a) 10 Marble trading problem as part of the previous

3) Is it possible to create "eternal city" with 100 culture rating and to keep this 100 rating without any intervention for millenniums?

4) Are there any practical method to schedule the exact pattern (exact months) for a random events like contaminated water, invasions, gladiator revolts, etc... When I am trying to create a map I usually want to spread out some events during the year (neutral events, like wage change, price change, etc.), and to concentrate another in one-two months (like invasions!!) but usually they are all messed like 3-4 in one month, and invasions separated with almost whole year, easy to defend, terrible thing. So I need to edit time after time small things on the map (adding tree, deleting tree, adding tree,.... :)) and test, test, test,... to launch the randomizator again and again to achieve the satisfactory spread out of events.

5) And, of course, the most awaited for my taste, the Editor of the Empire Map, where any city created by Impressions could be nominated as Your City, with possibility of editing trade routes (including expanding of trade to each city in the whole Empire). I think building Rome or Alexandria, or some other cities would be great fun. Actually when I started playing C3 campaign like 20 years ago, I expected that in the end the reward will be Rome city unlocked in City Builder (like it is in C4?) and I will have a possibility to build the OWN ROME (like default saving name proposes), but was greatly disapointed after those final video, I hate it from that time :)
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