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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Emperor: Scenario Design Palace » Military request - city attacks rival
Topic Subject:Military request - city attacks rival
posted 03-27-04 21:36 ET (US)         
Military request - city attacks rival (touching on 'city under attack')

Manual states: For the 'City Under Attack' subtype, the city requesting aid is being attacked by a rival army.
Use the 'City Attacks Rival' event when you want one of the player's allies or vassals to attack a rival.

The manual alludes to ally status being important but from experience, we know that 'city under attack' will fire regardless of ally status. The subtype 'city attacks rival' also seems to fire(when/if it does) regardless of ally status.

'City attacks rival' has a borderline situation where the event messages never fires, but during the trigger month the 'city summary page' and empire map will show the military request. I ran several tests setups(allied/not allied/military/no military) with feb+1 as the trigger and got consistent results exemplified by the save.

The best explanation for the disappearing request would be invasion called off due to discovery of a 'bad decision'(non-player feels its military is too weak). This hypothesis is supported by several variations of test where I extended the trigger month to July+1 and the request just doesn't materialize(not even for the trigger month). The tests I've conducted thus far are early within the missions(1-1.5 years) with all cities having equal military strength. I would gather that they would eventually attack city#0 (the requested troops go to the requesting city). but I have as yet not had a message to read.

Thinking that the 6 month leeway (troops take ~6 months to reach the water route requesting city) may be the problem I extended it to 12 months and tried another run at July+1. No joy, sort of confirming the 'invasion called off' theory.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 04-09-2004 @ 10:35 AM).]

posted 03-27-04 22:39 ET (US)     1 / 24       
Until your post, I could not handle 'military request' event. Now I can do. Thank you!
(Does Hero correspond to 1 Troops?)
posted 03-27-04 23:06 ET (US)     2 / 24       


Does Hero correspond to 1 Troops?

I don't know. I usually don't send heroes.
posted 03-28-04 12:55 ET (US)     3 / 24       
Thank you for reply. I am creating a mission with early requests. I will try it.
posted 03-28-04 17:09 ET (US)     4 / 24       
Further testing the event 'Military request - city attacks rival'

Due to a corrupted campaign this post is edited to reflect retesting.

trigger month beyond 1st year(1,2,3)
I retested the first year(0-0) trigger comment in later post.

player city: 3 shields
aggressor city: 5 shields
defender city#0: 1 shield

Time allowed 12 months
from: = attacking ally/vassal
(scripted 'rival becomes ally')
(scripted 'rival becomes vassal')
to: = player city
(as specified in manual)

Event fires with City#0 as the target of attack
Fires even if vassal is rebeling
Does NOT usually fire if requester is a rival. When it does there is no favor loss for NOT sending troops.
[I see potential in delaying alliance until after event trigger to avoid sending troops. Like waiting until after the 'city under attack' has EXPIRED before making an alliance to avoid a favor loss.]

For those not use to using other peoples editor folders
I'm NOT tech support, so if your NOT familiar with the editor and NOT confident of your own abilities then DO NOT attempt this.
I have the patch - If you don't get it before doing anything else.
The 'new folders' need to be placed in the campaign folder.
In the editor:
click 'Campaign' select 'Open'
(the new folder may not be listed, if it is listed then stop here)
type in the name of the new folder
click 'create PAK'
Click 'Yes'
Click 'OK'
exit the editor
restart the editor and the 'Open' dialog should now list the new folders

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-29-2004 @ 12:15 PM).]

posted 03-29-04 03:11 ET (US)     5 / 24       
Did you create the campaigns by cloning an existing one? 'Cloning a campaign' bug is reported by Gweilo. I guess that a similar bug is causing the problem in your campaign. After rebuilding the missions, 'city attacks rival' event began to work correctly. So far the manual states seems to be right.
(The .zip file containing the .set file and completed cities is rare. I am going to use your campaign for various tests. Thanks!)
posted 03-29-04 08:35 ET (US)     6 / 24       
Many Thanks KaZu;
The 'comptest' campaign seems to have gotten corrupted between the 'city under attack' and the 'city attacks rival' tests. I've been using it the last month, changing/deleting/adding event scripts without any problem until now.

I'll edit the above post to reflect the changes.
I'm no stranger to corrupted campaigns. I've recreated my personal maritime campaign 4 times and and I'm only a little over half done. Sometimes event changes will cause it, sometimes its event timing, sometimes its a change/addition to the empire map. I keep a paper notepad listingmy current progress of eventing just in case of another corrupted campaign file.
I have great respect for Gweilo's ability and patience in creating worthwhile/useable campaigns.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-29-2004 @ 10:51 AM).]

posted 03-29-04 09:54 ET (US)     7 / 24       
I ran through several tests, to see how the 'city attacks rival' reacts to year 0 trigger, creating a couple new campaigns folders in the process.

Its not advisable to use a year 0-0(any month) trigger.

Feb 1-1 is a bit weird; sometimes acting like in the original post, sometimes no message but showing in the city summary page as an outstanding request throughout the 6 month leeway time.
You'll get a favor loss eventually if troops are NOT sent - I didnt build a military thus I got the favor loss messages when the event expired. '

March 1-1 and beyond the event message is displayed.
Test setup simular to post 4 except leeway changed to 6 months.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-29-2004 @ 11:24 AM).]

posted 03-29-04 10:59 ET (US)     8 / 24       
Just to add a little bit about scripted events set to fire in 'year 0', I have found several types of events (examples: military buildups, disasters) will not always show a pop-up message when the event fires, if you have it set to go off in year 0.

I am reading this thread carefully and I'll make some comments after I fully understand all the testing you guys are doing. Keep up the good work!

[This message has been edited by Gweilo (edited 03-29-2004 @ 11:05 AM).]

posted 03-29-04 11:52 ET (US)     9 / 24       
I suggest re-reading the thread as I have been editing posts.

year 0 is truely strange.

January 0 is even stranger. Its as if sometimes the editor is working on Jan-Dec instead of Feb-Jan. I am avoiding January triggers as much as possible. Feb/Aug are autosave months and sometimes interrupt scripting/messages (especially when playing at 100% speed).

The editor itself is weird as if it was originally a linux C++ program that someone recompiled for windows without fully debugging/adding all the standard 'Windows(MS)' code.

I'm at a point in my personal campaign that I'm revisiting cities using continuation missions. I want to get things moving as early as possible, thus reliable year 0 eventing would be good.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-29-2004 @ 12:44 PM).]

posted 03-29-04 16:12 ET (US)     10 / 24       
After thinking about your test results, I think I have found a good fit for using this 'military request - city attacks rival' in my current work-in-progress campaign.

I am really interested in getting this event to fire even if the player is not allied with the city requesting the troops for the joint attack, so if you learn any tricks to get that to fire consistently please pass them on. I will be scripting this event even after the player has logically allied with the requesting city later in the mission, so I should get it to work at least some of the time, but I would prefer it to fire regardless of the relationship between the requesting city and the player's city.


posted 03-29-04 17:29 ET (US)     11 / 24       
I don't think it is possible to consistantly/properly fire while a rival. The only time it happened was Jan0 or Feb1, didn't display a message, only showed as an outstanding request for the duration of the trigger month.

I plan on using the event with a 'city conquered' event to cover the instance that the player would be allied to the aggressor. I prefer not to make extra 'empire map' changes that effect the player's status. My personal view of conquered cities is that they are valued by the conquer for its ability to be productive(tribute/prestige), thus the conqueror wants control not devestation. The exceptions would be barbarian conquests that sacked cities, leaving them in chaos(a level 7-9 earthquake is a good simulation for a player city).
The player will see one of the events depending on his status with the aggressor. If he is also allied to the defender, then he has a tough choose and the 'city conquered' event may impact his status with the defender. Since the defender is city#0 'city under attack' will not fire(not a viable option).
The troop movements on the empire map are not what I would like. The troops are shown going to the requesting city (not perfect, but will do). Now its just a matter of timing & syncing the two events so it at least seems realistic. I don't want the troops to return before city#0 falls. I'm trying to model the relationship china had with Funan and Champa (200CE-600CE).

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-29-2004 @ 05:58 PM).]

posted 03-29-04 19:04 ET (US)     12 / 24       
Your implementation plan sounds good to me. As for my plan, I think I will set it up to fire repeatedly over the course of a few years. I will 'lead' the player in the direction to make alliance with the aggressor during the mission, so that whenever that alliance begins, at least one of the military request events will fire and the player will receive the pop-up message. Sometimes a shotgun approach is all we can do as a designer, considering different playing styles and different choices made by players. It's very hard to script for all contingencies.

I will also be scripting a 'city conquered' event after the last military request. Good idea to do that, since these events string together so nicely.

[This message has been edited by Gweilo (edited 03-29-2004 @ 07:06 PM).]

posted 03-30-04 14:23 ET (US)     13 / 24       
I just remembered a question about this that I don't see talked about in this thread. If a player responds to a 'city under attack' event within the time limit, they usually receive some weapons in a warehouse as booty. Have you noticed this same thing happening with the 'city attacks rival' event? If you have, do the weapons appear regardless of whether the player sends enough troops to meet the level of the request (which is what happens on 'city under attack')? Thanks!
posted 03-30-04 14:30 ET (US)     14 / 24       
Didn't think of it at testing time. No warehousing for weapons. I'll test again later today and see unless someone post with the answer.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-30-2004 @ 02:33 PM).]

posted 03-30-04 14:33 ET (US)     15 / 24       
No biggee, Shaun. I'll be testing this myself in about a month or so (whenever I can get to the mission that uses this event), and I'll post here to let you know. Of course, if you want to know sooner....
posted 03-30-04 18:35 ET (US)     16 / 24       
I retested(two runs-same results) and found that under the proper situation (event trigger beyond first 13 months) the troops go to city#0 and you get a divy of the weapons. As I recall, the previous observed troop movements were from one of the earlier tests that may have been corrupted(original post savegame).

trigger March year 2
requested troops 5-6
9 infantry troops sent

arrived to assist Oct year 2
(defender: ~25 units/~30 trained troops
received 9 weapons
lost 4 troops

aggressor would of sent half as many troops as the defender (~12 units - 50% sent, 50% guard home)
The aggressor troop movements are not shown on the empire map.

Troops(5) returned ~March~ 'Victorious'
Still 'experiance conscripts' so experiance was less than a full chevron. Perhaps another invasion to get the chevron.

There was no favor boost message. The probability of 'conquest of city' was low(21:25). Number of troops sent exceeded the aggressors request. I know that failing to meet the requested number of troops, even marginally, will result in favor loss. Perhaps if city#0 was 'conquered' then a favor boost might come.

Aggressor/defender(both chinese) shields/coins set at 3 and unfortified cities. Aggressor had troop losses(~8units) as its shields didn't progress until after I would expect it to go to 2 shields. Defender had fewer troop losses(~6units) then the agressor as its shield progressed(Aug3) before the agressor(Oct3).

The numbers are estimates based on my experiance.
The months/year are actual.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 03-30-2004 @ 06:35 PM).]

posted 03-30-04 22:11 ET (US)     17 / 24       
Thanks for confirming, I'm glad the player can get some weapons booty from this.
posted 04-12-04 07:56 ET (US)     18 / 24       
Over the weekend I tested this event in my current work-in-progress (and for anyone following these posts, it is NOT a campaign related to the E:BE; it's something entirely unrelated.)

My testing had mixed results. I had scripted 3 of these events to fire in months 13, 22, and 33 of the mission. Required levels of troops were 2, 4, and 6 respectively.
In my playtesting I purposely allied with the requesting city in the first year, hoping to get all 3 events to fire.
However, the first and second 'city attacks rival' failed to fire. Only the third one worked.

I have been looking for clues to this, and the only thing I can see is that I didn't have sufficient troops to meet the level of the request until the month the last one fired. If this is the cause, it seems weird because the 'city under attack' event will fire regardless of the level of troops a player has.

Anyway, I wanted to share this to see if anyone has any ideas as to why my first two 'city attacks rival' events failed to fire. Thanks.

posted 04-12-04 15:36 ET (US)     19 / 24       
13th month(feb1 or march1) = Feb1 trigger = weird behavior

22nd month(dec2 or jan2) - don't know but here are a few thoughts
1. Are all 3 cities involved (city0, player, requester) differant? Player/requester being city0 could have weird results.
2. In testing I had some setups without a military and the event fired a message.
3. How much time was allowed to fullfil request(leeway)?
4. Was there an overlapping of request/fulfill time? Did leeway overlap(13-22=9 months - time for troops to return to city0 they will send 50% of their available troops and if some/half are still returning home it may cause the event to be suppressed, remember this event causes troop movement/losses from the requesting city.)
5. January trigger can be weird.

[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 04-12-2004 @ 04:18 PM).]

posted 04-12-04 16:29 ET (US)     20 / 24       
All 3 cities involved are different. I used 4 months for the time limit to fulfill the troop requests (in all 3 scriptings). I don't think there was any overlap in the times.

I will try adjusting the months to avoid March/January and see if that helps. I can still get the event to fire once, which is acceptable, but I would like to know why the other two times it won't work.

posted 04-13-04 23:50 ET (US)     21 / 24       
Tonight I got the 'city attacks rival' event to fire twice in the mission I'm testing. I did not change the times the event was scripted. The only difference I can see is that the allied city had a higher favor towards me this time, (than before) when the first event fired. Perhaps the favor has something to do with triggering this.
posted 04-18-04 10:37 ET (US)     22 / 24       
I playtested the mission with 'city attacks rival' again last night. This time the event only fired once, even though I was allied to the requesting city at the time of a prior scripting of it. After checking the requesting ally's favor at the time the event failed to fire, I am more convinced that my theory in post 21 is likely. It seems as if an allies favor must be raised fairly high (cooperative or higher) for this event to fire. However, let me say this theory is not conclusive. Perhaps one of us can test this more intensively in the future.
(id: shaun1)
posted 09-29-06 09:26 ET (US)     23 / 24       
The scripted event 'Military Request> City attacks rival' is Very Buggy(Broken?). Recent testing done, exploring this old subject, follows.

Posts 3,7,8 have the most useful information for someone wanting to figure out how to get this script to work reliably. The other posts have tidbits that may be confusing until you start playing with event/scripting. The following information may make the designer think twice about using this event unless you have a desire to confuse the heck out of the player. Depending on the event timing the player MAY or MAY NOT get 'Defeated warriors return' or 'Victorious Warriors return' messages.

Three rules of thumb
1. It doesn't matter what you set for the number of troops. If the player sends one troop(on time) they will get a big favor bonus.

2. Exception to rule 1, if the combined forces are enough to conquer the defender then no favor bonus is given. You may get weapons booty instead.

3. Postponing the request until you get a last chance message:
"Greetings, YourName. RequesterRulerName of RequesterCityName, can't believe you'd let an opportunity like this pass!I am doing you favor by giving you the chance to participate in what is sure to be a great victoryover the DefenderCityName. I need your troops now if you desire a portion of the glory."
Your troops will get permaneently stuck at the defenders city. The player will need to delete the effected forts and replace them.

The favor bonus is as follows:

Sending trooops on time:
Requester favor is effectively set to 100 points(testing confirmed at least +70).
Micro favor bonus +40
>: If requester is an ally then all other allies will get this bonus.
>: If requester is an vassal then all other vassals will get this bonus.

Failing to send troops on time:
-20 Requester favor
Micro favor bonus -10
>: If requester is an ally then all other allies will get this penalty.
>: If requester is an vassal then all other vassals will get this penalty.

[This message has been edited by shaun1 (edited 09-30-2006 @ 05:29 AM).]

posted 06-23-17 20:18 ET (US)     24 / 24       
I am resurrecting this old thread because it helped me recently and I have new information to share about it.

I could NOT get this event to fire when it was scripted to occur in April of the 3rd year (month 26) and my city was allied to the requestor at the time with 'Cooperative' favor towards me. In the month the event fired, the requester had 2 shield icons, the target city (city 0) had 2 shield icons, and I only had 1 shield icon. In the mission, my city is limited to building only 1 military unit. The empire map was built with city 0 having a max of 6 shield icons, the requesting city having 6 shield icons, and my player city only having 1 shield icon.

So after I re-read this thread I got an idea that the event might be influenced by the maximum shield icons set for a city, regardless of how much military the city actually had when the event fired. So I went back and modified the campaign to increase my player city from having a maximum of 1 shield icon to 4 shield icons on the empire map. Then replayed the mission with exactly the same event scripting in place as before.

Guess what? This time the event fired in the 26th month! Even though my city still only had the same single military unit in it, I did get the pop-up message for the event. So it seems the max shield icons set for the player's city on the empire map does affect the formula for whether this event will appear for the player or not.

So a Rule of Thumb for this event is to make sure to set the player's city with at least 3 shield icons on the empire map to meet criteria to make this event appear for the player during gameplay. Note that other criteria like being allied to the requesting city is also still important too.

(Special thanks to Shaun for his old research on this which he documented above and was still very useful!)

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[This message has been edited by Gweilo (edited 06-23-2017 @ 08:20 PM).]

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