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Topic Subject:Century of Palaces Club
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Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-16-03 17:26 ET (US)         
I thought that since the 50,000 club was popular I would also start another one about cities that have 100 or maore palaces on them. My first idea was that they be limited to Large or Luxury palaces but any others could also post here and we could have seperate lists. I only know of two so far. What I really don't want to have is contest type 100 palaces where they are all evolved the minute before the save and all devolve the minute after the save. So we are looking for 100 stable palaces. This just seems interesting to me .

If anyone is interested or has passed this level please post here.

*****************************************************


Those I know of are;

Caesar Philon - (1st April 2004) CARIA 67,748pop ; 250 luxury palaces

Caesar Philon - (16th November 2003) CP 200LxPalces; 58,000pop ; 200 luxury palaces

Goonsquad (17th november 2003) LLANDILO 50,519pop ; 137 luxury Palaces.


Theo ( November 2001? ) MEGOPOLIS 67,776pop ; 120 Large Palaces.

Caesar Clifford (1st November 2003) Cliff104P . 29,219pop ; 101 Palaces. All Luxury.

Tomek ( 1999? ) AMPHIPOLIS 54K 54,044pop ; 100 Luxury Palaces.

*******************************************************

Finally added Phil's great efforts.

[This message has been edited by Clifford (edited 07-08-2004 @ 03:29 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
joshofet
Pleb
posted 10-24-03 10:44 ET (US)     51 / 249       
Did you try EJ? Always thought that for two wines you need to have two sources for your wine. Doesn't matter whether you import wine or vines, it's a source, you just need a second source, either import or local production.

Sorry, wrong, to quote Brugle

"All wine in the city is considered as being 2 types if and only if wine is being imported and either 2 trade cities sell wine or the city contains a wine workshop."

That means that with 40 wine imported and one wine workshop you can have 83 palaces. Not enough to join the club, but impressive.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 10-24-2003 @ 11:01 AM).]

philon
Pleb
posted 10-24-03 12:16 ET (US)     52 / 249       
Hi EJ,
If you choose a province where you can build vines farms and wine workshops and if there is also a sea route selling wine you could open that trade route and set to import wine. You dont need to have river entry-exit points, a river or a dock.
I think I will use this way since when really importing someting a warehouse might get full with this good and wouldnt work well if another good is delivered there.

Joshofet,
I'm not sure if it would work when being able only to import vines. I have not tested it but when thinking I guess it wouldnt work since you might use only imported vines to produce one kind. In Alan's site there isnt that option included too. Probably Brugle is right about it.

[This message has been edited by philon (edited 10-24-2003 @ 12:23 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-24-03 12:18 ET (US)     53 / 249       
EmperorJay,
A market will get stuff from a granary (or warehouse) if the "as the crow flies" distance from the north tile of the market to the north tile of the granary (or warehouse) is less than 40 tiles (counted in any direction including diagonally). Of course, with a shorter distance the market could get more stuff in a given time.
philon
Pleb
posted 10-24-03 12:28 ET (US)     54 / 249       
In empire 8 (Caesarea) vines can be imported but not wine. You can also build vines farms and wine workshops but the editor says housing level is limited to villa since one wine. Is this your empire EJ?
EJay
Pleb
(id: EmperorJay)
posted 10-24-03 12:45 ET (US)     55 / 249       
Thanks Brugle.

Philon, that seems useful, since you don't need an extra warehouse for the wine, but if you set all warehouses to not accept wine, you can still tell the advisor to import wine without having to actually import it.

Joshofet, I'm going to try to import more and produce less myself when the number of palaces increases. That saves me workers, which allows me to delete plebian houses.

Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-24-03 16:24 ET (US)     56 / 249       
Okay had another try last night with a central location. But I feel I will go back to northern. With northern I didn't need prefects or engineers for my tents. With central I need both.

Now my question for the day is this. How far can school children run?. I designed a 13 palace block and the first one worked awesome. The school children ran 23 tiles which just reached the last palace. Then I set up an identical block next to it. And the school children ran 21 tiles. Now I counted these two results 50 times and there seemed to be no reason I could see why this should happen. I changed the second school to the other side of the road, still 21 tiles do they in fact run different lenghts because of location like tents reaching 2x2 or staying 1x1 or is there something else I am missing here.

I use Valentia as you can produce everything on your own map. You don't need to place a dock or anything. Just set the trade advisor to importing wine. Thats all you need to do. Of course you have to click out of those annoying "no working dock" messages but then you don't use up sprites with donkeys or trade ships. Also Valentia has fishing, wheat and fruit which is all you need.


"I'd rather die with memories than dreams"
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-24-03 16:42 ET (US)     57 / 249       
Clifford,
School kids, like other "random" walkers, do not follow simple rules. They can be counted to go around 20 tiles, but sometimes they go farther. Often, they go in different directions at an intersection, but occasionally they all go in the same direction.
Vectorgod
Pleb
posted 10-24-03 22:33 ET (US)     58 / 249       
Hi everybody,

I've been lurking here and watching everyone's progress. RL has me really running behind and I want to complete Agoraphobia before I get into this. I am really looking forward to it!

Clifford,

I wonder if your school-children are "cutting the corner" in your block that is getting the longer coverage? I have a palace block I use that a couple of palaces that only touch the road at the corners. If I leave an open space to the inside of the road corner, I sometimes have trouble with walker coverages. I imagine that cutting this corner also makes the walkers think they have covered the same distance. (?)


Have a good day!

Vectorgod

Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-25-03 04:35 ET (US)     59 / 249       
Hi Vector, nice to see you.

No its a straight line road and both blocks are the same. As I said I measured the tiles that they ran for and from one school it was 23 and the other 21. This was the group of 3 children and one ran further than the other two.

So if its random I just need to keep replacing the school until I get another one that will run 23 tiles, would that work because I can't see why they should run the same number of tiles every time otherwise. They did not ran a different number of tiles from each time they got let out of school. Another interesting one that I'm sure someone will solve. Also I've noticed that academy and hospital work better when you want the walker to walk one way than the other. i.e. they will always walk further west than they will east. It's market ladies I have trouble working out what they will do.

I'm sure we will learn something more from this exercise as we seem to from every contest. It's great there is so much interest in it.


"I'd rather die with memories than dreams"
philon
Pleb
posted 10-25-03 08:37 ET (US)     60 / 249       
Cliff,
yes this will be a good experience for the players who are giving it a try. Its a complicated issue with many factors to consider and you have made it a funny event at the same time with this club, thank you.

I'm still trying to get a block work with forced walkers. My first idea was a 80 lx palace block but it didnt work since the lenght of the map wasnt enough. I want to place the blocks paralel each other without having much space between them since this would reduce the number of desirability structures but this plan limits the space for farms, workshops etc. At the end I gave up and returned to the second suitable number; 60 palaces. The problem is that I need 2 raw matterials for 3 workshops wich is driving me crazy(I'm losing 3 buildings per block here). Getting warehouses or importing goods doesnt seem like suitable options to solve this.

I think the number of desirability structures and fountains will play an important role. In my current block I have one fountain for 6 palaces and a large statue(or arch) for a little more than 2 palaces but I try to get 3.
Has anyone worked on blocks with Governer's residences? Its very interesting I think. Governer's palace is much more suitable to use together with oracles but all the layouts I found are increasing the number of fountains wich isnt good since the needed workforce needs to be keept low as well.

I have made some roughly calculations and I think for one palace 2,7 more buildings will be needed (3,7 when including the palace itself). So it should be possible to build 100 palaces with 370 buildings if I havent missed something. Certainly I'm not including here plebeian blocks.

Cliff, I thought you were using tents for labor since this would reduce the walkers but after some calculations I saw its also a good idea for workforce too. I'm still in doubt about this. My plan was using SC's with fish but certainly I will spend a lot of walkers for them especially when thinking a wharf counts as two walkers.
I checked the numbers you gave when you reached 100 palaces. If your palaces were full you would have 10.798 population in small tents wich means 540 small tents. Since your total workforce is 4915 this would mean 9.1 workforce per building and 45% of plebs should work. In the beginning of a city I have seen 45% workforce of plebs but in year 33 that would be very high. I wonder if your palaces werent full at that time or is the reason that tent occupants die earlier.
In Ephesus in year 52 I have 2295 workforce with 135 SC's(and 190 buildings and 25% workforce). But the plebeian blocks spend some workforce too so the remaining WF is 1937 with 190 buildings. This makes 10.1 workforce per building.
With Brugle's suggestion when using large tents the differences would be less.
Does anyone have experiences about ageing with tents and small casas? If not I would need to run a tent city for 50 years. I guess city health would be very good in tent and palace only cities. Probably 2/3 of the population should have access to a clinic. Cliff, could you say what level city health was at the time of 100 palaces.
CP

Edit:
EJ,
I dont want misleading anyone so I need a correction. I said I'm using the ratio population/# of buildings in a block to consider its efficiency but as you see thats not exactly the case here. Certainly this would useful if you are trying a high population as well and I was considering this.
I'm using here #of buildings/#of palaces for palace blocks and workforce in a certain year/# of buildings for plebeian blocks. I think if the first number is around 4 or less a palace block could be considered as a good one regarding building limit and for a plebeian block 10 workforce or higher in year 50 per building wouldnt be bad. Also the # of walkers need to be considered wich is one of the hardest parts in these cities as Tomek referred.

[This message has been edited by philon (edited 10-25-2003 @ 08:55 AM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-25-03 14:21 ET (US)     61 / 249       
Clifford,
The distance and direction that "random" walkers go is not really random--they depend on the position of the building on the map, on the surrounding road network, and perhaps on other things. If you destroy a building and then build an identical one in the same place (and make no other changes), the new walkers will behave the same as the old ones.
Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-25-03 23:04 ET (US)     62 / 249       
Brugle , there still must be some way of working out why they run indifferent lenghts from different sites. But i haven't the time or energy to investigate.

Philon , I looked at my save. I do have 100 palaces on the map but you have to be quick to see them and one is a small palace. I looked at the health advisor for you and he/she says "City health is good" This whole thing is harder than at first glance it seems it could be. Hope I can get there one day. With so many unemployed workers I hoped to be able to delete a number of tents which would give me more sprites to play with. Maybe more farms.

Edit; checked the number of small tents. approx 586 and I found one 1x1 small tent I didn't know was there. Anumber of the palaces weren't full yet. Mostly the last block where some only had as few as 52 people in them. So around 11,275 in tents. You can work out how many in the palaces beter than me but around 19,523 which means an average of 195 so I was getting there. And room for only another 500 pop which means I reached everything with only 31,000. shocking waste of effeciency but thats never been my strong suit. I am more a conqueror of the goal than anything else. Haven't got back to it since my schools didn't reach on last effort. But other ideas spring to mind. Still like the idea of 8 x 13 palace blocks to reach 100 and if there are plenty of everything left over I can just add more palaces.


"I'd rather die with memories than dreams"

[This message has been edited by Clifford (edited 10-25-2003 @ 11:18 PM).]

Alexander e Grt
Pleb
posted 10-26-03 12:08 ET (US)     63 / 249       
city with 100 or more palaces, that's impressive and challenging. but with 100 palaces, where do we get our workforce from?? HOw many population must we have in order to support 100 palaces??
and Cliff, i think the nmber of squares school children run is absolutely random. i tried experimenting and once, they ran 26 squares, and once they ran 22 squares. it's the same with other people, like librarians, bath workers etc...
btw can anyone send me a model city with 100 palaces??
EJay
Pleb
(id: EmperorJay)
posted 10-26-03 14:01 ET (US)     64 / 249       
As Clifford has mentioned only a few posts ago in this thread, post #62, the last post posted before you posted, to be exactly. He had 11.275 people living in tents. That results in roughly 5500 employees, since ~45% of all plebians work.

It could be that both Megopolis and Amphipolis are available in the downloads section at http://caesar3.heavengames.com.

philon
Pleb
posted 10-26-03 14:45 ET (US)     65 / 249       
Hi EmperorJay,
Amphipolis is available in downloads section but Megopolis not.
Alexander e Grt,
check your e-mail for Theo's Megopolis. I think you will see soon more cities with 100 palaces.

I have a few problems wich arent so hard to solve but I need to restart.
CP


Alexander e Grt
Pleb
posted 10-28-03 08:33 ET (US)     66 / 249       
Hahaha. Megopolis is really amazing man!

[This message has been edited by Alexander e Grt (edited 10-28-2003 @ 08:33 AM).]

philon
Pleb
posted 10-29-03 16:05 ET (US)     67 / 249       
I was close to complete my first plan for at least 200 lx palaces and immigration stopped. It has taken some time until I realised the problem was caused by arches. I placed a few arches between the houses like this:

Legend
The three tiles in the middle of the arc are considered as roads and houses started getting thier access from here and since there is no open path it blocked immigration. My plan was saving a few buildings but it seems building limit wont be a problem in my city since I guess there will be around 500 buildings more available when I finish.
If you are using big blocks be sure that a market is passing each two months since all villas and palaces will store 8 pottery and wine, 4 oil and furniture. And 4 furniture or 4 oil will be enough for only two months. Smaller blocks would need less markets I think especially if granaries are close but this strategy would end with more service buildings. Currently I have 4 big blocks and 1 librarian, 1 theater... etc for each. Its a hard to decide wich way is better since I have 16 markets for each block.
How are others doing? Cliff, EJ, DX, goonsquad how is it going?
CP


Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-29-03 17:59 ET (US)     68 / 249       
Sounds like you are going to make it Phil. How did you get your arches? Just set distant battle against 1 soldier at 6 per year till you got the limit of battles. Do the arches cue up. Can you have 10 and use them when you want? I haven't been back to mine again yet.RL is very stressful at present and I haven't had the energy even though it is a very interesting exercise and I will do it. Even if I have to go back to an earlier save of my 100 palaces one and adjust it so I do get 100 lux palaces. That shouldn't be hard but I would like more than 100. I will never get 200 I know that.

"I'd rather die with memories than dreams"
philon
Pleb
posted 10-29-03 18:23 ET (US)     69 / 249       
I set distant battles for each four years such as year 0,4,8,... and yes 1 soldier. When the army hasnt returned from a battle the next request will simply dissapear and you wouldnt want this since there can be only 20 requests.
One thing wich I'm worried about are deads in year ends. There should be around 550- 600 houses when the city is completed and this could cause reaching walker limit and wharves losing ships. Either I need to build fast or prevent deads but preventing them is very hard. Maybe joshofet knows exactly how to do it.
Yesterday I wanted to see if desirability calculatins were correct and they are. I got 240 palaces stable but not full since the reason mentioned above. I think this time I will do it. The whole city looks really good.
Edit:
I dont know if arches can be stored and build a few in one time. I guess thats not possible.

[This message has been edited by philon (edited 10-29-2003 @ 06:25 PM).]

Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-29-03 20:11 ET (US)     70 / 249       
If you got them stable then surely they would fill up over time no matter what data limits you had reached. BTW, 240 lux palaces x 200 pop = 48,000 plus workers. You will have another entry for 50,000 club as well.
EJay
Pleb
(id: EmperorJay)
posted 10-30-03 01:52 ET (US)     71 / 249       
I'm redoing my whole plan, plus I was rather busy with some other things last week.

I was trying to use one road. At the beginning the actor colony, gladiator school etc. and at the end the venues. Then I wanted to place Palaces on one side of the road and the service buildings on the other side (with some modification for the market and school). However, placing those service buildings and regular intervals costed way too many workers and buildings. So, I have to redo that part.

goonsquad
Pleb
posted 10-30-03 04:01 ET (US)     72 / 249       
Philon in my city I had two Triumphal Arches owing to me and after building the first was still able to build the other, so it seems the game records how many arches you have to your credit. I made my distant battles 30 enemies, 2 legions of cavelry are quite adequate to win this battle, and you are correct that the battles must be spaced not less than 4 years apart, so you need at least 77 years to get the 20.
goonsquad
Pleb
posted 10-30-03 04:56 ET (US)     73 / 249       
I had a block design (33 luxury palaces) working but started getting mysterious devolving of my palaces, due to momentarily running out of either oil or wine (mostly oil, even though all markets and nearby warehouses appeared to be carrying it). Often these devolves were only for a few tiles of time, but because of the way my fountains were set up, this was pretty disastrous for some of them, as once the palace reached Medium Palace stage (3x3) the main building would mostly lose its fountain access. The other problem I discovered was that once this happened, the resulting Insulae would then demand oil, furniture and pottery from the market ladies, leading to further devolves as these commodities quickly ran short in the markets (this sometimes leads to luxury palaces with greater than their normal maximums of these commodities). This was happening with only two blocks built (I am planning four of them)and a population of 14,000, so I very much doubt the original oil shortage was sprite related ( and my shipyard was retaining its boat- a sure sign). There was plenty of each kind of food in the granaries and no alternative granaries connected in any case, so the market buyers wouldn't have been looking for food over long distances. The blocks are sort of forced walker blocks of about 200 tiles total length with 7-8 markets per block. None of this happened until the palaces were full or very nearly so, when they were half full or less you could run the city on 100% for several years and they were stable.

I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer to this, but the theory I have come up with is that one particular market supplies each house (or maybe one market supplies each house each commodity), and the seller from THAT market must pass within 2 months or you run out of oil, furniture or wine. I could be completely wrong about this, but this problem just kept happening to me, even though I went back to earlier saves and beefed up oil and food production. I tried between 14 and 18 each of fruit and wheat (northern) and 5-6 very efficient wharves to try and overcome the devolves, but they kept happening anyway.

In any case I have restarted with a water source and a reservoir smack in the middle of each block so the palaces have multiple water supplies in case of devolution. Not very efficient I know but that seems the best solution. If they devolve for a few seconds they should quickly re-evolve.

philon
Pleb
posted 10-30-03 05:29 ET (US)     74 / 249       
Hi goonsquad,
thanks for the info about storing arches in the bank. Next time I will start the city in year 40BC and will spend 40 years without building anything seriously.

You are right about houses losing oil and furniture in two months. All villas and palaces store 8 pottery and wine so they would run out of it in 4 months. As you said there needs to be a market seller passing by each two months wich has oil and furniture. When houses reach palace level and have more occupants the amounth of food they store is incredible. Sometimes its around 1000 units (10 cartloads) so they wouldnt run out of it if a market for food had passed each 6 months. I was thinking about complicated blocks but will try this later after I have completed my first plan.

EJ,
your plan for using a gladiator school in one side and a lion in another side is a good one. I'm using this too. I had used it in a lately challange for building the highest number of insulaes with one venue and school.
If you had used forced walkers this plan would work good since you can connect FW's to the U's with gardens. In my city I have one more gladiator scool and lion house on the sides since I have 4 blocks. The further ones dont reach the venue but thats no problem. The collesoum has two shows and they are send to that building so it doesnt matter if they reach it or not.

Cliff,
yes I will join 50.000 club once again with around 67k population but unfortunately I need to sleep and go work from time to time. So its a matter of time only now. I know my blocks do work since the good consumption is the same when houses arent full and I'm producing certainly enough food.


[This message has been edited by philon (edited 10-30-2003 @ 05:31 AM).]

Tomek
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 10-30-03 06:45 ET (US)     75 / 249       
goonsquad, some data about Your block:

33 full LP = 6600 people, who require annually 33x200x6=39600 food, and (4+1)x33x24=3960 commodities. You have 8 markets for this block. 1 market annually should get an average of 39600/8=4950 food, that means 4950/800~6,2 trips (slightly more), and 3960/8=495 commodities, that means 495/200~2,5 trips (if the trips are succesful for the first time, and if i remember well, that buyers get a maximum of 200, not 400). Together market buyers do almost 9 trips a year (or more than 7, if buyers can get 400 of commodities), what can theoretically be ok, if all distances (between markets and warehouses/granaries/palaces) are short, but the ratio of 1 market/825 LP-dwellers are too optimistic, i think, that's why the problem occurs when palaces are getting full (with inhabitants).

correct me, if the calculations are wrong, i have not done such for years .

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