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Topic Subject:Century of Palaces Club
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Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-16-03 17:26 ET (US)         
I thought that since the 50,000 club was popular I would also start another one about cities that have 100 or maore palaces on them. My first idea was that they be limited to Large or Luxury palaces but any others could also post here and we could have seperate lists. I only know of two so far. What I really don't want to have is contest type 100 palaces where they are all evolved the minute before the save and all devolve the minute after the save. So we are looking for 100 stable palaces. This just seems interesting to me .

If anyone is interested or has passed this level please post here.

*****************************************************


Those I know of are;

Caesar Philon - (1st April 2004) CARIA 67,748pop ; 250 luxury palaces

Caesar Philon - (16th November 2003) CP 200LxPalces; 58,000pop ; 200 luxury palaces

Goonsquad (17th november 2003) LLANDILO 50,519pop ; 137 luxury Palaces.


Theo ( November 2001? ) MEGOPOLIS 67,776pop ; 120 Large Palaces.

Caesar Clifford (1st November 2003) Cliff104P . 29,219pop ; 101 Palaces. All Luxury.

Tomek ( 1999? ) AMPHIPOLIS 54K 54,044pop ; 100 Luxury Palaces.

*******************************************************

Finally added Phil's great efforts.

[This message has been edited by Clifford (edited 07-08-2004 @ 03:29 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-20-11 22:33 ET (US)     201 / 249       
Total walkers 676 of which 444 are on destination paths
The range of total walkers was (in the saves I looked at) 624 - 718 and the number on destination walks 413 - 496. Ratios of destination walkers varied between 65% and 75%.
I'm curious about these (from replies #160 and #163). Are most of the walkers not on destination walks cart pushers who are sitting around? (There will be some citizens and school kids and patricians and fishing boats, and perhaps a few engineers and others.) How about basket boys? All you'd need to check is one--I expect they'd all work identically. The same goes for seagulls.
Trium
Pleb
posted 05-21-11 14:31 ET (US)     202 / 249       
Brugle - I'll take a look as soon as I can, but I'm currently separated from the software I use to dig information out of saves. I'll get back to you.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-21-11 18:20 ET (US)     203 / 249       
Trium,
Don't go to a lot of trouble--its mostly just curiosity. I have a tentative plan for markets and granaries and warehouses (a slight change from what I described earlier), which as a side effect should somewhat smooth out the fluxuations in basket boys, so (assuming I don't get any new ideas) whether each basket boy has an entry in the destination route table doesn't really matter.
Trium
Pleb
posted 05-22-11 14:33 ET (US)     204 / 249       
Brugle - exploring C3, even after all this time, is never 'a lot of trouble'

My recollection is that each basket boy does have a separate entry in the destinaton walkers' table, but you know how reliable recollection is for us fifty-somethings . I'll confirm, but realistically it will be next weekend.

[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 05-22-2011 @ 02:35 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-23-11 17:59 ET (US)     205 / 249       
All but 1 of the gladiators are eliminated by moving the gladiator school near the colosseum and sending the lion from the colosseum by a quarter of the palaces (those that otherwise would get colosseum coverage from gladiators) to its walk target near the colosseum. (All of the colosseum's walk targets would be used by lions going by those palaces.)
This (from reply #170) might not work. Expanding the number of palaces to 320 increased the distances somewhat, and I discovered that (with the possible exception of a hippodrome chariot) that a lion from a colosseum take a longer "coffee break" than any other service-providing "random" walker. In any case, I came up with an even better scheme.

There will be 2 unstaffed colosseums, each connected only to a gatehouse, and each with a gladiator school nearby that will keep it supplied with gladiator shows. A lion pit will send out lions to each of the colosseums, roughly half of them going by 1/4 of the palaces to one colosseum and the others going by 1/4 of the palaces to the other colosseum. A more distant lion pit will do the same for the rest of the palaces, except that those lions will disappear before reaching either colosseum. This requires 3 more buildings but saves 25 workers and about 11 walkers.

The peak number of walkers will be reduced somewhat by synchronizing (out-of-phase) those walkers who take exactly the same time. For example, the kids from a school will be generated every 5 duodays (what I now call 2-day periods), so school timing will be adjusted so that during a cycle of 5 duodays, 3 schools (usually) or 4 (in one case) will start on each duoday.

I've already discussed some small walker reductions from reducing the number of chariots, preventing a few patricians by separating some palaces from any road, and eliminating priests. I may be able to reduce the number of citizens somewhat by putting more tents in the supply areas, but those aren't designed yet.

I have some new ideas for supply areas, but won't descirbe them until they are more complete. Probably the greatest walker reduction will come from reducing (and out-of-phase sychronizing) market traders. I expect some savings from market buyers, too, but don't know how to quantify it.

More efficient use of buildings (mostly from eliminating warehouses, but several other things help) should allow more tents than in LuxPal26. I think it likely that my 320-palace city (I've got to think of a better name) will work, if I can find the time and the inclination to do the grunt work.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-28-11 19:59 ET (US)     206 / 249       
My plan for supplying non-food goods has changed. The old plan (described in reply #177) had 1 warehouse for 40 palaces, with 2 markets (each covering 20 palaces).

The new plan is to have 1 warehouse for 80 palaces, with 3 non-food goods markets (each covering all 80 palaces) and a gatehouse. Each market trader will take a walk every 4.5 months, with the 3 market traders spaced exactly 1.5 months apart. In any period of 9 months, all non-food goods markets will supply exactly the same amount of each good.

Instead of using 8 warehouses and 16 non-food goods markets, the new plan uses 4 warehouses and 12 non-food goods markets and 4 added gatehouses, for a savings of 36 buildings and at least 4 walkers. Preventing warehouse fragmentation will be trickier.

The major problem is that instead of resupplying essentially immediately, non-food goods markets will take about 60 ticks (the time it takes most walkers to go 4 tiles) to resupply with a good. After resupplying with one good, the minimum delay before resupplying with another is increased from 50 to 100 ticks. This means considerably more trouble preventing problems from markets running out of multiple goods (especially wine) at the same time, but I'm convinced that the problems can be solved. (I won't go into details unless asked.)

An 80-palace supply area will be composed of two 40-palace food areas around an 80-palace non-food goods area. The design is far from complete. At the moment, I'm struggling trying to support the 80-palace supply area with 2 engineer posts (for a total of 12 in the entire city), but may have to settle for 3 (for a total of 16).

I'm also trying to give all tents water. That means tents in supply areas will not be where food market traders or buyers pass, but I think I can manage that. It would be nice to not have any small tents.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 05-30-11 19:43 ET (US)     207 / 249       
I forgot to mention this in my last reply.

For any set of 3 non-food goods markets that supply a "stack" of 80 palaces, not only must their market traders take exactly 4.5 months for each walk (including the "coffee break") and start their walks exactly 1.5 months apart, but they also must be spaced exactly 1.5 months apart. This is to make sure that each market distributes exactly the same amount of a good in every 9-month period. This extra condition does not apply to a set of 3 food markets.

I've completed a preliminary design of the supply areas. Half of the sets of 3 food market traders will take 2.25 months for each walk (including the "coffee break") and start their walks 0.75 months apart, and half will take 2.375 months for each walk and and start their walks either 0.75 or 0.8125 months apart. Only 8 engineers should be needed in the supply areas (only 12 in the entire city). It was tricky keeping market trader distances short while fitting in the planned reservoirs and lots of 2x2 large tents--I had to add some indentations to the elevated sections, which meant rearranging triumphal arches and oracles to keep desirability sufficient. I hope I didn't make any careless mistakes, but it would be easy to miscount tiles or desirability.

I plan to call the city "Palace Peaks".

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-30-2011 @ 07:57 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-06-11 12:43 ET (US)     208 / 249       
I finished the design, created the main parts the map, determined (by experimentation) where 2x2 tents would form in the supply areas, ran quite a tests, decided how to fix the observed problem, and finished the map (incorporating the corrections).

The only problem found was a few potters having poor labor access or losing labor access entirely, which I should have suspected might be possible (but I won't bother to explain unless someone is curious). Making minor rearrangements allowed a 2x2 tent to be placed where it would prevent that loss of labor access. It would have been more efficient (in terms of workers) to leave those 4 tents without water, but I wanted everyone to live in at least a large tent, so I added 4 more wells to the design. As long as I was doing that, I made more minor modifications (which depended on where 2x2 tents would form) to increase the number of tents near the new wells (and, in a couple of cases, necessarily decreasing the number of tents near other wells).

Unlike before building LuxPal256, I didn't actually build a few blocks of luxury palaces. That would be a lot of effort, and the amount of time I'd save if the test failed would probably be less than the amount of time I'd waste if the test succeeded.

For the significant task of determining where 2x2 tents will form around each worker fountain, I'm trying to learn to recognize the 8 basic northern climate terrain graphics, as described by Trium in Merging 2x2's, terrain graphics (and random walkers), but so far I've only distinguished 7. So I plan to download, modify for northern climate, and study Trium's example terrain map (linked from that thread).
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-06-11 18:15 ET (US)     209 / 249       
I'm trying to learn to recognize the 8 basic northern climate terrain graphics, ... but so far I've only distinguished 7
That was good enough--the 2 terrain types I failed to distinguish both allow merging. (Recognizing the 3 non-merging terrain types is sufficient.) This will make building PalacePeaks easier.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-11-11 15:10 ET (US)     210 / 249       
I designed where 2x2 tents will go (using Trium's terrain recognition method) and have started building PalacePeaks. (I've already made several minor design changes.) A tiny city existed for about 20 years and was then destroyed, leaving behind 192 marble in 6 warehouses, a mounted fort (losing 1 soldier in each distant battle) and some triumphal arches ready to be built. (I plan to build 12 triumphal arches, but 15 distant battles are scheduled in case I screw up.) For about 10 years there was nobody in the city other than soldiers.

30 years after starting, building resumed. After 1.25 more years there are 80 sturdy huts and lots of tents.

I hope that I don't encounter the sort of problems described in the second paragraph of reply #154. The map is a lot more constrained than LuxPal256, partly because of the elevation, so similar problems may not be as easy to fix.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-11-2011 @ 03:17 PM).]

Trium
Pleb
posted 06-12-11 17:03 ET (US)     211 / 249       
Brugle,

I still haven't had time to look into your queries regarding walkers and I realize that you have probably moved on by now. I've sent you some results from an automated scan of your save so that you can possibly obtain the information you seek for yourself instead of waiting forever for me

(I did notice on briefly scanning these results that basket boys seem to be missing from the destination walker list altogether. Presumably they attach to the market buyer)

[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 06-12-2011 @ 05:48 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-12-11 18:47 ET (US)     212 / 249       
... I realize that you have probably moved on by now
Yes, I plan to build PalacePeaks as currently designed except for minor tweaks.
I've sent you some results from an automated scan of your save
Great! I'll check them out when I feel curious.
I did notice on briefly scanning these results that basket boys seem to be missing from the destination walker list altogether. Presumably they attach to the market buyer
That makes sense. Similarly, I suppose that trailing donkeys attach to the leader of their caravan.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-16-11 21:00 ET (US)     213 / 249       
I had an unpleasant surprise when I saw a grape farm spawn on an unexpected road. (Details are in reply #4 of Weird spawning tile for a citizen.) I fixed the problem by rearranging a few buildings in the 4 non-food goods supply areas (so that none of those buildings touched multiple unconnected roads), which required moving a 2x2 stury hut out of 2 of those supply areas.

3.5 years after building resumed (in the 34th year overall), the population is about 5000 and the best houses are small casas. Synchronizing the market traders and industries is a chore but looks great when done.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-29-11 21:33 ET (US)     214 / 249       
At the end of the 38th year (8 years after immigrants reentered the deserted city), 14321 people live in 16 large villas, 64 medium villas, 80 small villas, 160 1x1 medium insulae, 16 2x2 large tents, and lots of 1x1 and 2x2 small tents. PalacePeaks made an annual profit for the first time, and funds never fell below 11000 Dn (starting with 99999 Dn, at Hard difficulty and the standard Rome wage rate).

All 36 markets are built and synchronized such that no more than 2 market traders spawn at the same time. Industries are being synchronized so that 2 raw material producers and 2 workshops will spawn cart pushers each duoday. The clay/pottery and timber/furniture industries are complete, the olives/oil industry is over half complete, and the grapes/wine industry is over a quarter complete.

The tough part is trying to synchronize market buyers so that the amount of a good in a warehouse doesn't vary too much and to prevent a market from running low of too many goods at the same time. Once all houses supplied by a warehouse are using a good, the only (crude) tool to adjust the use of that good is to have only 1 of the good in the warehouse when a market buyer gets it. So far, pottery and furniture use in all warehouses and oil use in half of the warehouses is adjusted so that the amount of each good in a warehouse varies by only 4, but it is possible that that won't hold when houses expand to 4x4.

This careful building is often tedious, but progress is being made.

[added later:]
I noticed that a warehouse cart pusher getting goods will use a road-and-garden path to get to another warehouse. In one case, I momentarily disconnected a warehouse from the main road-and-garden network so that it would go cross-country to another warehouse, but forgot that it would take the road-and-garden path on its return journey, which took almost 9 months!

I had a problem with cart pushers that had disappeared from 4 of 5 wharfs around a fishing hole. Carefully checking saved games, I came to the conclusion that it occurred when a warehouse was deleted. My guess is that this is related to the problem where warehouses or granaries can get "connected", which is usually fixed by exiting and restarting C3. So now, whenever I delete a warehouse (which I will need to do again multiple times), I always restart C3 right before deleting a warehouse and then restart C3 again when loading the next save.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-29-2011 @ 10:23 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-30-11 10:18 ET (US)     215 / 249       
I noticed another strange glitch. Two vegetable farm cart pushers delivered to a granary that wasn't connected by road. (They took a very long (over 400 tiles) road-and-garden path to the distant granary.) After returning, they acted normally, waiting by their farms when the nearby connected granary was full and the unconnected granary had room.

Checking saved games again, I found that a warehouse had been deleted not long before the cart pushers left on their strange journey. I don't know if this related to the problem described in the last paragraph of my previous reply. I'll assume that the problem is fixed, since going back to before the problem would mean redoing a lot of work.

[added later:]
I thought that some wharf cart pushers had gone missing again, but it turns out that they (like the vegetable farm cart pushers) went a very long way across the city to a different unconnected (except by a road-and-garden path) granary and, after returning, worked properly again. Perhaps this is the explanation for the previous cart pusher "disappearing" problem. In any case, I'm going to watch carefully for cart pushers where they're not supposed to be (since it could be disastrous if it happened in the final city).

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-30-2011 @ 12:17 PM).]

Granite Q
Angel
posted 06-30-11 14:50 ET (US)     216 / 249       
Brugle, I'm sure you have mentioned it, but I can't find it.
Which map are you using for this?
Thanks.

"Can I draw you a beer, Norm?"
"No, I know what they look like. Just pour me one."
Cheers !!
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-01-11 13:31 ET (US)     217 / 249       
Hi Granite Q,

I created a custom map. I can't imagine trying to set a record for full luxury palaces on a standard map.

Like the map for LuxPal256, the map for PalacePeaks is the largest, with a northern climate, an empire state that can produce everything and can import wine by water, distant battles every 4 years for a while (to obtain triumphal arches), many roads (partly to save funds but mainly to help locate other features), enough forest and meadow, 8 4x6 fishing holes, and bits of water for reservoirs and clay pits. The roads, forest, meadow, fishing holes, and bits of water are in very different locations than in LuxPal256.

The biggest difference from the map for LuxPal256 is that the map for PalacePeaks has 2 elevated areas, each basically a 32x160 rectangle running from the SW edge to the NE edge, with a few small zigs and zags in the boundary. If I counted correctly, there are 19 access ramps on each "peak".

As with LuxPal256, I made several minor changes to roads after starting construction. Some were expected (since, for example, I didn't determine where most of the 2x2 tents would form until after the map was finished). Others were to fix problems and to make minor improvements.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-01-2011 @ 01:45 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-06-11 09:19 ET (US)     218 / 249       
Quick report: Late in its 43rd year, PalacePeaks had over 25000 people living in 48 large villas, 32 medium villas, 240 small villas, 134 2x2 large tents, and lots of 1x1 and 2x2 small tents.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-12-11 09:25 ET (US)     219 / 249       
At the end of its 47th year, PalacePeaks had 34122 people living in 16 large palaces, 64 medium palaces, 240 small villas, 409 (I think) 2x2 large tents, and lots of 1x1 and 2x2 small tents. The average growth rate since immigrants reentered the deserted city is over 2000 people per year.

There was another worrying development. One of the large palaces should have had enough desirability to evolve to a luxury palace, but indicated that it didn't. As a check (not "for real"), I evolved the 80 current palaces to luxury palaces. The palace in question (like quite a few others) required a temporary desirability boost to evolve to a luxury palace, but stayed as a luxury palace once the temporary boosters were removed. Another palace, however, devolved back to a large palace without the temporary boosters. The environment of that palace is an exact mirror image of a neighboring palace, but its desirability is different! I'll have to add a permanent desirability booster, a small statue or medium statue or oracle, which means having one fewer 2x2 large tent. (That sounds trivial, but it hurts to see the plan mangled.) I hope that there won't be many more such problems and that they will be similarly fixable.

Until now, I've tried to have no more than 16 houses with vacancies at the end of each year, and usually succeeded. (There were only a few additional houses with vacancies the few times I failed.) This was to prevent births of people who would retire around the time the city is finished. (It would be better to have adult immigrants who would retire earlier and have a better chance of eventually dying and being reborn in time to grow into adults.)

Since I expect the city to be finished well before 100 years, soon I'll start increasing the number of houses with vacancies at the end of each year. (Eventually, when the city is nearing completion and approaching the walker sprite limit, vacancies will be limited again.)
Granite Q
Angel
posted 07-12-11 10:13 ET (US)     220 / 249       
Brugle; how many workers do you plan to have in this city? Obviously some will have to provide the required services, but how many will be in manufacturing of the necessary goods, or are you going to have the majority of those imported (and therefore less labour requirement)?

Apologies if you've already addressed this in a previous post.

"Can I draw you a beer, Norm?"
"No, I know what they look like. Just pour me one."
Cheers !!
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-13-11 10:07 ET (US)     221 / 249       
how many workers do you plan to have in this city?
If my calculations are correct, 5784 employees will be needed, but I hope there will be at least 7500 workers at completion (out of 22260 tent-dwellers). Lots of unemployment should allow PalacePeaks to run for many years before falling apart.
how many will be in manufacturing of the necessary goods
If I haven't made a mistake, 3104 employees (about 54%) will produce or store food and 1224 employees (about 21%) will produce or store non-food goods.
or are you going to have the majority of those imported
That would be impossible. Every year, PalacePeaks should consume 1267.2 of each of 3 foods, 153.6 wine, and 76.8 of each of 3 other non-food goods.

Besides, trying to distribute just 76.8 per year of a single imported good would be a logistical nightmare. Everything will be locally produced.

One reason that I chose 320 luxury palaces (like a discarded plan with 304) is that they can be supported with the same non-food production buildings as in LuxPal256 plus 4 more wine workshops. PalacePeaks will have about 25% more food production buildings than LuxPal256.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-14-11 09:29 ET (US)     222 / 249       
At the end of its 51st year, PalacePeaks had 42880 people living in 80 large palaces, 240 small villas, 681 2x2 large tents, and some 1x1 and 2x2 small tents. Several of the large palaces should fill (to 190 residents) within a year.

I intend to wait 2 or 3 or 4 years before evolving any houses to luxury palaces, to slightly reduce the demand on food supplies during that time.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-16-11 14:36 ET (US)     223 / 249       
In the 53rd year, the first luxury palaces formed. In the 54th year, the last of the 22260 plebeians moved in. In the 55th year, city health (which had been below average since shortly after immigrants started to resettle the deserted city) "improved" to average a month after the second "stack" of 80 eventual palaces started getting clinic coverage, but would have become average later that year even without expanded clinic coverage. Also that year, a 2x2 large tent devolved when a pair of wheat farms were built nearby (reducing the number of plebeians to 22252).

At the end of the 55th year, Palace Peaks had 48656 people living in 80 luxury palaces, 80 large palaces, 160 small villas, 794 2x2 large tents, and 1 2x2 small tent. The luxury palaces were full. Most of the large palaces had 50 residents.

Again I saw cart pushers taking road-and-garden paths to deliver to distant granaries. Cart pushers using a road-and-garden path when no road connection exists has the results of my investigations.

Again as a check (not "for real") I evolved the large palaces to luxury palaces. Again I saw a luxury palace devolve when the temporary desirability boosters were removed, and it was the palace in the same relative position as the one that required the extra desirability booster in the first palace "stack"! Assuming that it wasn't an unlikely coincidence, either the exact arrangement of buildings around those two palaces causes desirability to be calculated differently (which I doubt), or something about how I built those palaces caused the glitch. The initial development of those two "stacks" was almost identical. If I had to guess, I'd say that it involved the absorption of 1x1 large shacks (with only well water) by evolving 1x1 medium insulae. If so, the problem should not occur in the remaining two "stacks", which had no houses absorbed since 1x1 medium insulae that evolved to small villas could fill within a year.

The easiest way to compensate for the additional desirability booster (small statue, medium statue, or oracle) in the final city would be to delete one of the 2x2 large tents. But there are other options. I'll think about it.

[Edited to mention that a large tent devolved.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-22-2011 @ 11:15 AM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-19-11 08:41 ET (US)     224 / 249       
I did nothing to PalacePeaks for almost 5 years except dispatch troops to the last distant battle. When those troops returned, I deleted their fort, built some more farms, and deleted the 4 extra farms feeding the luxury palaces.

In the 59th year, city health became good. Since the third "stack" of eventual palaces could get clinic coverage without further health "improvement", I began to evolve some of its small villas, but only as large palaces filled (to limit the number of immigrant families). At the end of the 62nd year, there were 60072 people in 80 luxury palaces, 80 large palaces, 1 medium palace, 39 grand villas, 1 large villa, 1 medium villa, 118 small villas, 794 2x2 large tents, and 1 2x2 small tent.

A set of 4 oracles was replaced with 1 of the extra triumphal arches, allowing 2 oracles to be used as extra desirability boosters (and leaving 2 spares) without eliminating another tent.

[Edited to correct the housing count.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-22-2011 @ 11:14 AM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-22-11 09:47 ET (US)     225 / 249       
In the 65th year, city health became very good. At the end of the 67th year, Palace Peaks had 67282 people in 162 luxury palaces, 58 large palaces, 20 medium palaces, 80 small villas, 794 2x2 large tents, and 1 2x2 small tent.

[Edited to correct the housing count.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-22-2011 @ 11:17 AM).]

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