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Topic Subject:Century of Palaces Club
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Clifford
Pleb
posted 10-16-03 17:26 ET (US)         
I thought that since the 50,000 club was popular I would also start another one about cities that have 100 or maore palaces on them. My first idea was that they be limited to Large or Luxury palaces but any others could also post here and we could have seperate lists. I only know of two so far. What I really don't want to have is contest type 100 palaces where they are all evolved the minute before the save and all devolve the minute after the save. So we are looking for 100 stable palaces. This just seems interesting to me .

If anyone is interested or has passed this level please post here.

*****************************************************


Those I know of are;

Caesar Philon - (1st April 2004) CARIA 67,748pop ; 250 luxury palaces

Caesar Philon - (16th November 2003) CP 200LxPalces; 58,000pop ; 200 luxury palaces

Goonsquad (17th november 2003) LLANDILO 50,519pop ; 137 luxury Palaces.


Theo ( November 2001? ) MEGOPOLIS 67,776pop ; 120 Large Palaces.

Caesar Clifford (1st November 2003) Cliff104P . 29,219pop ; 101 Palaces. All Luxury.

Tomek ( 1999? ) AMPHIPOLIS 54K 54,044pop ; 100 Luxury Palaces.

*******************************************************

Finally added Phil's great efforts.

[This message has been edited by Clifford (edited 07-08-2004 @ 03:29 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 11-13-10 12:13 ET (US)     151 / 249       
The 10th triumphal arch was built in the 39th year. For the previous 15 years there have been no people except for a gradually decreasing number of soldiers (sometimes on Empire service), and the only buildings have been a fort (later to be deleted), a gradually increasing number of triumphal arches, an unstaffed engineer post, and 8 unstaffed warehouses containing 208 marble.
Lord Normanby
Venerable Old Codger
(id: Caesar Clifford)
posted 11-13-10 17:40 ET (US)     152 / 249       
The 10th triumphal arch was built in the 39th year
I am assuming you know that you don't have to build them as you win them. They do queue up so you can build them all at once if you wish.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 11-13-10 18:14 ET (US)     153 / 249       
I am assuming you know that you don't have to build them as you win them. They do queue up
Yes, but I enjoy looking at them.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 11-24-10 19:02 ET (US)     154 / 249       
A quick update on my attempt: people (other than soldiers) reentered the city in the 41st year. City health quickly went to below average and has stayed there since. Late in the 48th year, funds (which had started at 99999 Dn) were 291 Dn after building the colosseum (which completed the construction of everything costing over 100 Dn each). At the end of the 49th year, funds were 4555 Dn and 12155 people lived in 16 grand villas, 48 medium villas, 52 small villas, 140 1x1 medium insulae, 16 2x2 large tents, and a bunch of 2x2 and 1x1 small tents.

I've had lots of problems, many of them easy-to-fix playing mistakes such as placing vacant lots 1 tile off. But there were 3 significant problems, one of them described in Weird spawning tile for a citizen. Another was that a planned bit of water (for clay pits) didn't exist, which frightened me until I figured out how to work around it by juggling buildings. (An earlier version of the map had that wet spot, so I must have carelessly wiped it out.) The most serious was a design error--I didn't realize that a "random" walker, when cutting a corner by a gatehouse to get to its "walk target", could go by the gatehouse (even though it couldn't get through without cutting the corner). I considered ignoring the problem (since it occurred only on half of the walks by the trader from 1 out of 4 markets for 4 out of 16 housing blocks), but was able to fix it by deleting a tent, rearranging a few pottery workshops and tents, and adding 2 road tiles.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-01-10 15:57 ET (US)     155 / 249       
Construction keeps being delayed by thoughts about ways to do better (even though I may not make another attempt). I think that the tedious part (determining how 2x2 large tents can be built around each non-palace fountain) is over, since all 20800 planned plebians have moved in. For the first time in one of my cities, the data limit (building sprite limit) was reached (caused by not-yet-merged 1x1 tents).

At the end of the 70th year (30th year since the population was last 0), there are 40644 people in 64 luxury palaces (12 having a total of 636 vacancies), 192 small villas, 705 2x2 large tents, and 53 2x2 small tents. Unemployment is 41%, so the tax rate is 3%, enough to make taxes more than double wages. City health is still below average, but that will "improve" soon after another stack of 64 small villas gets clinic coverage.

By the way, I took Clifford's implied suggestion and stopped building triumphal arches after the 15th, so there are 2 in the queue.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 12-01-2010 @ 03:59 PM).]

Yahya
Pleb
posted 12-02-10 13:18 ET (US)     156 / 249       
I must say, I am looking forward to seeing the finished result, and it seems like you're getting there, Brugle.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-04-10 09:46 ET (US)     157 / 249       
Done! All 256 luxury palaces were filled in the 95th year, making 72000 people. LuxPal256 is stable for over 20 years (eventually failing from a worker shortage) and was submitted to the Downloads.

Unemployment is 23%. Health is very good. All gods are displeased. Sentiment alternates between idolize and love. The wage rate is 38 (8 above Rome). Each palace pays tax (at a 6% rate) over half of the time. No tents pay tax. Tax registration bounces around, averaging a little over 50%.

I never saw a walker sprite problem. 9 building sprites are not used. (The 12 temples and 4 forums could be deleted for 16 more, although at least 1 forum is needed to make money.) Buildings are:
256 luxury palaces
705 2x2 large tents
53 2x2 small tents
4 wells
27 reservoirs
96 fountains
20 engineer posts
32 wharves
116 wheat farms
116 vegetable farms
12 granaries
8 clay pits
16 pottery workshops
8 timber yards
16 furniture workshops
8 olive farms
16 oil workshops
16 vine farms
28 wine workshops
16 warehouses
64 markets
16 gatehouses
16 schools
4 libraries
4 academies
4 baths
4 clinics
4 barbers
4 hospitals
4 theaters
4 amphitheaters
1 colosseum
1 gladiator school
3 lion pits
1 hippodrome
1 chariot maker
4 forums
4 small Venus temples
4 small Mars temples
4 small Ceres temples
104 oracles
16 governor palaces
20 triumphal arches

I think that Caesar Philon's goal of 300 full luxury palaces is possible.
Yahya
Pleb
posted 12-05-10 14:51 ET (US)     158 / 249       
Hey Brugle,

I just had a look at your city, and though I'm no expert, I'd say it's very well done. Congratulations on finishing it!

While these techniques are far beyond my level, looking at your city does make me want to reevaluate how I handle walkers from entertainment buildings, at least those that supply entertainers for shows.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-06-10 22:52 ET (US)     159 / 249       
Hi Yahya,

Thanks for the comment. I'm proud of the city, but I think I can do better (if I find the time).

In case anyone is interested in similar cities, I did some experiments on LuxPal256, trying to determine whether it is closer to hitting the walker sprite limit (about 1000) or the point-to-point route limit (which I recall hearing is about 600). After deleting the 12 temples and 76 large tents, I tested by adding a bunch of barbers (each with a unique long walk route) and then tested again by adding some actor colonies sending a bunch of actors to a theater (with only a few independent routes). In both cases, the city ran fine for 10 years with 70-75 new walkers and failed after a few years (by some building collapsing) with 80-90 new walkers. This leads me to conclude that the walker sprite limit (not the point-to-point route limit) is the key.

The implication for future design is to emphasize reducing walkers, even if they are following common routes. For example, I'll try to reduce patrician walkers (at least somewhat) by reducing palaces that touch roads (except perhaps for a point at a corner). Before running the tests, I had thought that trying to reduce patrician walkers might not have been worth the trouble.
Trium
Pleb
posted 12-15-10 19:01 ET (US)     160 / 249       
Brugle - I could have saved you a little time

At the point of the save:
266 cartpushers
54 labor seekers
4 tax collectors
20 engineers
8 actors
10 gladiators
25 lion tamers
11 chariots
32 fishing boats
61 market sellers
12 priests
34 schoolchildren
4 teachers (academy)
4 librarians
4 barbers
4 bathgirls
4 doctors
4 hospital surgeons
29 market buyers
10 patricians
66 basket boys
2 hippodrome racers

Total walkers 676 of which 444 are on destination paths
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-15-10 19:29 ET (US)     161 / 249       
Trium,

Interesting information (especially that just under half of the market buyers are out), but the problem is that the numbers vary, and if the walker limit is ever reached the city is likely to fail. Which numbers change the most? Basket boys? Citizens (labor seekers)? Patricians? I'm hoping it's patricians, since in a possible design for the next attempt I've prevented patrician walkers from about 47% of the palaces, but (taking your single data point as typical) that might eliminate 6 patricians on average.

By the way, do you know whether walkers following the same route share the same entry in the "destination paths" table? In LuxPal256, all gladiators follow the same route, over half of the chariots follow the same route, and all or all but 1 of the lions follow one of 3 routes.
Trium
Pleb
posted 12-15-10 19:51 ET (US)     162 / 249       
I'll have a look (probably tomorrow now) and see how the numbers change. On long loops. of course, most 'random' walkers are out most of the time and entertainers from schools are steady, so those numbers won't really change. I'd expect 'swings and roundabouts' - the problem, as you'll have noted, is when everyone's on the swings at the same time.

As for your other question, as far as I know it's one entry per walker and not one entry per route, but I'll double-check.

[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 12-22-2010 @ 07:59 AM).]

Trium
Pleb
posted 12-16-10 13:36 ET (US)     163 / 249       
Anyone who added up my numbers might have realized that I missed out the 8 seabirds

I began by making a save once a week just as a gladiator is spawned (therefore so are all other walkers waiting to spawn and the number is at a maximum for that cycle) but I soon grew tired of that and began analyzing one per month. Of course, with any arbitrary sampling frequency you cannot know that you have not missed some exceptional peak or trough between saves. I covered 4 years.

As expected, most 'random' walkers hardly vary at all - for example there are almost always 20 engineers, 4 doctors, 12 priests, 4 bath girls (just occasionally one or two less). Ditto entertainers. Market sellers, for some reason, show a significant range (54 - 63). The most variation is in market buyers (22 - 36) and consequently basket boys (13 - 91), citizens (43 - 61), schoolchildren (22 - 42) and cart-pushers (257 - 316). The range of total walkers was (in the saves I looked at) 624 - 718 and the number on destination walks 413 - 496. Ratios of destination walkers varied between 65% and 75%.

I had formed the impression on previous occasions that the number of walkers in an established city did not fluctuate quite as much as one might imagine.

Regarding destination walkers - there are two 600-entry tables. For a 500-byte entry in the nth position of the path information table there is a corresponding 2-byte entry in the nth position of the second table which references the sprite ID of the walker on that route. Therefore, only one walker can be referenced for a particular route - other walkers on a similar or identical route have a separate entry.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-16-10 21:21 ET (US)     164 / 249       
Trium,

Thanks much. I hope it didn't take a lot of effort.
Market sellers, for some reason, show a significant range (54 - 63).
Their walks are much shorter than the other "long" walkers (to prevent devolution), perhaps 1/3 as long, so they'll have a higher fraction of "coffee break" time.
The most variation is in market buyers (22 - 36) and consequently basket boys (13 - 91), citizens (43 - 61), schoolchildren (22 - 42) and cart-pushers (257 - 316).
Basket boys--I don't think there's much I can do to smooth out their count (without causing worse problems).

The frequency of each school's release of kids could be noted, and those schools that are the same could be phased to minimize the variations.

Did you check the variation in patricians? (If you didn't, don't go to the trouble of testing again.)
only one walker can be referenced for a particular route - other walkers on a similar or identical route have a separate entry
That's a little disappointing, but useful to know. I've been trying to make some routes identical by duplicating road networks exactly. It's usually easiest to simply duplicate sections, but now I'll feel freer to make slight variations when it appears helpful.
Trium
Pleb
posted 12-17-10 10:33 ET (US)     165 / 249       
Did you check the variation in patricians?
Yes - sorry, I thought I'd included it. minimum 9, maximum 15, i.e. not many (from memory I think patricians only respawn after 3 months).
Basket boys--I don't think there's much I can do to smooth out their count (without causing worse problems).
I used to think I was avoiding them if markets were only a tile or two from the supply, but I then found out that they are generated anyway whether or not they become visible. Proximity still helps, of course, by shortening their lifetime, but other than placing wheat nearest to most markets (if one has a choice) there isn't much to be done.

Just one point - if the destination walker percentage remains in that range (65-75%) as your city grows then you will probably hit that limit first. Avoiding sudden increases in destination walkers would be desirable. Probably the biggest cause of such increases when using large loops is granary congestion. Cart pushers huddled under granaries or standing outside farms have no destination and so take no space as destination walkers. A single market buyer hitting a granary can release six or eight carts from underneath it and at the same time start lots of other carts heading towards it. I see this happening quite a lot in your city, but I don't know if you can do a lot about it.
Trium
Pleb
posted 12-17-10 21:37 ET (US)     166 / 249       
Brugle,

It may not interest you (I have a pretty good idea by now how you like to play) but I just tried halving the number of warehouses for +48 employees and +72 building sprites. I set pottery to accept oil and wine to accept furniture, existing oil and furniture set to empty. I turned pottery/wine to not accept where necessary to make room for 16 oil/12 furniture, then deleted oil/furniture. These choices were arbitrary - I didn't consider what re-arrangement might be most optimal.

It took rather more than a year to set up, then I left it alone. Although there was some shifting in ratios (occasionally a warehouse would have only one bay of a commodity) most warehouses gave no trouble. The first observed non-availability was in an oil warehouse after more than 11 years, followed by a warehouse squeezing wine out a year later. First devolutions from lack of oil came in March 110, 14 years after I last intervened.

I suppose it depends on how long you regard as reasonable for a record-breaking city to remain stable. Design changes might help to prolong a free run (goods with the shortest trip to the warehouse tend to dominate) and obviously if minimal intervention is allowed (limited to occasional temporary non-acceptance of the dominating commodity) you can go on for ever (at least until other problems destabilize the city).

[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 12-17-2010 @ 09:40 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-18-10 12:51 ET (US)     167 / 249       
I just tried halving the number of warehouses for +48 employees and +72 building sprites.
That's a great idea. (I thought of it yesterday, first in a more restricted context and then realizing that it could have been used in LuxPal256.) I'll make another post or two on the new ideas I've had (mentioned in reply #155) and on my designs for more palaces. Just for fun, I'll start with a quiz for anyone:

In what 2 ways not used in LuxPal256 (one would be fairly obvious, the other wouldn't) could the number of luxury palace desirability boosters other than oracles be significantly reduced? Answer in a day or two.
It may not interest you (I have a pretty good idea by now how you like to play)
You're right: normally I wouldn't require special order manipulation for stability (even very long-term stability). But for this challenge (with its limits on walkers, buildings, and space), I'd do it.
First devolutions ... came in March 110, 14 years after I last intervened. ... I suppose it depends on how long you regard as reasonable for a record-breaking city to remain stable.
If you determined which goods tended to get squeezed out and started with more of those goods in warehouses, the city might have devolved from a worker shortage first. I'd consider several years of stability without intervention to be sufficient, the longer the better.
Trium
Pleb
posted 12-18-10 14:28 ET (US)     168 / 249       
In what 2 ways not used in LuxPal256 (one would be fairly obvious, the other wouldn't) could the number of luxury palace desirability boosters other than oracles be significantly reduced? Answer in a day or two.
If that includes altering the map, I can see how one might take steps....
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-18-10 15:27 ET (US)     169 / 249       
I can see how one might take steps....
Clever.

I should have thought of elevation before I started building LuxPal256. Heck, I should have thought of it before I starting designing.

The other way (which wouldn't be so obvious to an observer) does not directly involve altering the map
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-18-10 20:47 ET (US)     170 / 249       
The first new idea I had while building LuxPal256 was a chariot reduction. I had discovered that the hippodrome (unlike other venues) generated multiple chariots, at irregular intervals that averaged about 1 per month. In LuxPal256, each of those chariots ran through the same half of the palace blocks then back to its walk target near the hippodrome, so there were typically 4 or 5 chariots from the hippodrome. (It would have been too far to send chariots through the other half of the palaces then back to the hippodrome.) My idea was to have 3 of the walk targets connected through a short garden path to the hippodrome's start and finish points, so that the chariots heading for those walk targets would quickly go there and return to the hippodrome, so that only 1 or 2 chariots generated by the hippodrome would be active. I would have made this easy improvement in LuxPal256 if there had been a sign of hitting the walker limit during development, but there wasn't.

I later thought of a better chariot scheme. There are 6 or 7 chariots generated by the chariot maker supplying hippodrome coverage to half of the palaces. All but 1 of the chariots from the chariot maker could be eliminated by moving the hippodrome to a somewhat more central location, moving the chariot maker close to the hippodrome, and sending each chariot from the hippodrome by a quarter of the palaces then back to its walk target near the hippodrome. (Without the chariot maker the hippodrome would have no shows and would therefore generate citizens, messing up the chariots' rotation through the four walk targets.) With chariots from the hippodrome going shorter distances, I think there would be 2 to 5 total chariots. The garden paths snaking around from the more distant palaces to the hippodrome would make the space between a few palaces and the edge of the map quite cramped, but that's OK.

I also thought of a non-chariot entertainer reduction (plus worker reduction) during LuxPal256's development. The lion generated by the colosseum could be eliminated by not staffing the colosseum and touching it with a gatehouse (not a road). Soon after, I realized that the actor generated by 1 of the amphitheaters (the one that covers the same palaces that get colosseum coverage from gladiators) could also be eliminated by not staffing that amphitheater, moving it beside the colosseum, and touching it only with the same gatehouse. Gladiators would sometimes go to the colosseum and sometimes to that amphitheater. 2 walkers and 37 workers saved at the cost of 1 additional building is well worth it (although having an amphitheater and colosseum not working is an aesthetic flaw).

I later thought of a different (and probably better) non-chariot entertainer scheme. The colosseum and all amphitheaters are staffed. All but 1 of the gladiators are eliminated by moving the gladiator school near the colosseum and sending the lion from the colosseum by a quarter of the palaces (those that otherwise would get colosseum coverage from gladiators) to its walk target near the colosseum. (All of the colosseum's walk targets would be used by lions going by those palaces.) The colosseum would have to be moved to a somewhat less central location, so lions from lion pits would go somewhat farther, but lions from 2 of the lion pits would disappear before they went very much farther. I hated to give up the 37 worker reduction (from the previous scheme), but I decided that reducing walkers was more important.

Anyway, before finishing LuxPal256 I was already designing a city with 304 luxury palaces (almost half of them not adjacent to a road). Similar in some ways, it would have 19 palaces in each of 16 blocks. The increased population (probably a little over 80000) would require 110 (6 more) oracles. There would be 8 fewer fountains (but each of those 8 would have to exist until its houses got large enough to be covered by another fountain), 8 fewer palaces' reservoirs, no (12 fewer) temples (but temples would have to exist until their houses become medium palaces--before then they would take the places of theaters, amphitheaters, and (when 3 temples are needed) forums), 1 (3 fewer) forums (4 until the city can be profitable with fewer), no (16 fewer) governor's palaces, and 15 (5 fewer) triumphal arches. All building sprites would be used. The non-market service-providing buildings would be more distributed instead of all being clustered in four areas. I have 6 pages of detailed diagrams.

I have locations for the blocks of 2x2 large tents (outside of the supply areas), their fountains, and their reservoirs. With less free space available, tents' reservoirs will be less efficient: each tents' reservoir will supply only 3 fountains (that aren't already supplied from palaces' reservoirs), compared to 4 in LuxPal256. There wouldn't be as many unemployed workers as in LuxPal256, but if development doesn't take much longer there should be enough.

I have only rough sketches of some of the supply areas. There would be a total of 8 more fishing wharves (1 more in each fishing hole) providing plenty of fish, 32 or 40 more farms (half wheat and half vegetable), 4 more wine workshops, and (I hoped) 4 fewer engineer posts. To enable the engineer reduction (I hoped), the palaces would be to the SE and NW of the supply areas (compared to NE and SW in LuxPal256).

Sound nice? I thought so. Then some things hit me, including why stop at 304 luxury palaces? More ideas ... but that's a story for another post.

Anyone think of a second way to reduce desirability boosters significantly?

[Edit: changed "roads" to "garden paths" in one place, and changed "something hit me. Why" to "some things hit me, including why" in another.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 12-19-2010 @ 09:35 AM).]

Trium
Pleb
posted 12-18-10 22:38 ET (US)     171 / 249       
Anyone think of a second way to reduce desirability boosters significantly?
Since you've already said it doesn't (directly) involve altering the map (why "directly?" Hmmm) I take it you don't intend scattering water tiles about? And I can't see you using the map edge, certainly not with elevations. I'm out of guesses.
Caledonius
Pleb
posted 12-19-10 02:45 ET (US)     172 / 249       
Hi Brugle,
...wouldn't be so obvious to an observer...
Black holes and plazas?

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-19-10 09:09 ET (US)     173 / 249       
you've already said it doesn't (directly) involve altering the map (why "directly?" Hmmm)
All I meant was that almost any change can have indirect ramifications that might mean altering the map. For example, something might allow the elimination of some desirability boosters if buildings are rearranged, and that might mean moving a reservoir's bit of water. The technique I have in mind can be easily demonstrated on LuxPal256.
I take it you don't intend scattering water tiles about?
As far as I know, water can't be put on elevated land, so the choice was either elevation or bits of water. And, if I accurately remember some tests I made long ago, water only reduces the desirability requirement of a house when the water is adjacent to the N tile of the house. Elevation causes some difficulties, but it seemed so much better so I only considered bits of water for a few moments.
I can't see you using the map edge,
I've been surprised at how much I've learned from trying this challenge, and it appears that this is another example. I don't know any relevant effect of the map edge. Would someone enlighten me?
Black holes and plazas?
Do you mean concealing plazas inside a house using bugs in the undo function? I suppose that would work, but I want my non-contest cities to be understandable by any player who examines them carefully and knows the basics of the game (such as that a doctor provides clinic coverage and that a market's buyer fetches foods and goods). Of course, a player might not know that a house on elevated land requires less desirability or why an engineer goes where he goes.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-19-10 10:30 ET (US)     174 / 249       
I forgot to describe some tests I made on LuxPal256.

First, I deleted 8 wheat farms and 8 vegetable farms, so that there was only about 2% excess wheat and vegetable production capability. The city ran without devolution for several years. (I forget whether I ran it until it failed or stopped after perhaps 10 years.)

Second, I deleted 16 markets, so that there were only 3 markets serving each 16-palace block. The city ran without devolution for several years.

Third, I deleted both the 16 farms and the 16 markets. A few palaces in one block devolved after a few years. I did it again and watched the 3 markets serving those palaces for a few months before the devolution. One granary (I think it was wheat) had little food (often empty), so market buyers spent a lot of time trying to get that food. One market ran out of wine and stayed out for a while, which increased wine outgo from the other two. At about the time that the first market finally obtained wine, the other two ran out and the damage was done.

To summarize: fluxuations in food consumption can cause a granary to run low for a while, which can cause problem obtaining non-food goods (especially wine). Excess food production capability and more markets both help. I don't know which is more important.
Trium
Pleb
posted 12-19-10 18:13 ET (US)     175 / 249       
I don't know any relevant effect of the map edge. Would someone enlighten me?
I think you've probably just forgotten - I'm sure I reported it and we discussed it then (but I can't find a thread). I found during a contest maybe 2 years back that for desirability-related evolution the map edge behaves as though it were water.
if I accurately remember some tests I made long ago, water only reduces the desirability requirement of a house when the water is adjacent to the N tile of the house
True. Therefore, only the NE and NW map-edges can be exploited (at least for 2x2 and up), but I think in any case the problems make it impractical for this excercise.

[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 12-19-2010 @ 06:26 PM).]

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