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Topic Subject:Remake of Caesar III
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Lju88
Pleb
posted 12-27-12 09:58 ET (US)         
(sorry for my eng, I'm italian )

Hi everyone,
I don't know if I posted in the right section, feel free to move this.

As the title suggests my idea, the project that I would like to develop, is to create a "remake" of Caesar III.
I'll explain a little better in a nutshell.. basically I want to create a 3D game from scratch but with the same functionality and same kind of game, rules, etc... of Caesar III.

The differences from the IV chapter and many other games (which I was bored after a while.. and faster than I expected) are that I want to do the same kind of isometric game like Caesar III.. everything but graphic that will be in 3D. So.. roads, prefects walking along their path, etc..
In short more or less equal to Caesar III but only with graphics a little more beautiful (hopefully) and maybe few SMALL changes (I do have several ideas.. ie: Road Blocks) complying as much as possible with this masterpiece.

Since I work too much (unfortunately) I would do that very slowly during my little free time but, preferably, I wouldn't start before can rely on a team or someone to help me with graphics, sounds, texts, etc...
Even if I can recover some piece of code like maps management or pathfinding from other works I did.. all this will be a very hard work that will take a lot of time especially cuz it's done in my spare time.

I need some feedbacks and some advices from you.. or even better if anyone can/wanna take part and help I would be happy!!

Thanks for reading me,
Luca

Lucius MCMLXXXVIII
AuthorReplies:
Eswen
Pleb
posted 12-27-12 13:46 ET (US)     1 / 30       
Hello,
You are writing this in an interesting time, at least for me, because I had the idea of redoing C3 with minimal amount of changes on the gameplay side for quite some time. I had procured some support from a friend of mine, who was willing to do the artwork, and the modelling (she is a descent artist). I was reluctant to start, though, since I, similarly to most people in the field, am overworked and I wanted to have at least one programmer more (additionally to me). I have around 10 years of commercial programming and several years of scientific computing experience, and furthermore am advancing to finish up my nuclear physics master. In conclusion I would be interested in such a project. Even though it'd be done in the spare time I think it's feasible to expect finishing it in a year or two.

Personally I do prefer not to thinker with the graphical stuff, even if I have some good suggestions on how it can be achieved. If you have interest in participating I would gladly welcome you. Do write me an email if you think prudent to discuss details further.

Regards.

[This message has been edited by Eswen (edited 12-27-2012 @ 01:47 PM).]

Lju88
Pleb
posted 12-28-12 05:22 ET (US)     2 / 30       
That sounds great!
I see that you have a lot of experiences.. I think my work would have been more like.. amateur cuz I would take this project forward, in addition to my passion, to increase my skill too.
Anyway I'll write you an email to discuss about it!

Lucius MCMLXXXVIII
alincarpetman
Angel
posted 12-28-12 23:52 ET (US)     3 / 30       
Hi Lju88 and Eswen, sounds like an interesting idea. I made a thread here about independent city builder games which might have some info and links you may find interesting.

There was a Caesar 3 mod squad here and others like MoLAoS who posts here and elsewhere also have ideas and are working on similar projects.

Also because 0 AD is an open source game it might be an option to use, though I'm not sure if it would be best for your project.

Keep us posted on your idea
Lju88
Pleb
posted 01-01-13 11:53 ET (US)     4 / 30       
Thank you alincarpetman, I'll take a look!

Lucius MCMLXXXVIII
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 01-07-13 18:15 ET (US)     5 / 30       
Lju88, Eswen: Care to share your ideas for improving C3? I am intriqued.

I will have to politely disagree with Lju88 though about roadblocks. No roadblocks makes C3 harder than other city-builders, but this is it's unqiue challange.

[This message has been edited by GovernorSimulus (edited 01-07-2013 @ 06:16 PM).]

Eswen
Pleb
posted 01-11-13 10:23 ET (US)     6 / 30       
Sure, we would share them as soon as we have some clarity on the few technical details which would shape the project. My idea was to stick to isometric 2D for the main part while preserving the citybuilder aspects of the gameplay. Maybe thinker a bit with the military gameplay, but it's still in my head and we'll report when we have consensus. Stay tuned for updates.
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 01-13-13 00:07 ET (US)     7 / 30       
Eswen: Those ideas sound interesting. The military ideas sound like those in Caesar2 from what I understand of that game with a seperate "campaign map" outside the city-building map.

Might I also make two suggestions?

1. A militia-based military like Zeus with the army size based on city population with ordinary troops who will defend the province in the campaign map only but elite troops from patrician housing who can meet Caesar's requests for armies. I don't think calling out the milita should dip into unemployment though, perhaps the militamen are just standing by waiting to be mustered? However they would not want to be mustered too long or they'd get restless. Militiamen could also man city fortifications.

2. A navy perhaps? Borrow the software mechanics (sorry, I don't know much about software developement, so I don't know how else to describe them) from Pharaoh?

3. I have always thought it would be really nice to be able to fill-in water tiles or reduce rock/hill tiles in city building games because sometimes these are in the most inconvenient places. In order to prevent a user from just altering the landscape at will it would cost a lot, perhaps 1000 dn, to clear one tile of water/rock and the player could not "sweep" clear whole areas but would have to click each tile away seperately. If you tried to block the water entry/exit waterway through this feature a warning message similar to "road to Rome blocked" would appear and the river would be unblocked at the governor's expense (how ever many 1k dn's it would take).

Just my 2c. Keep us posted with development.
Eswen
Pleb
posted 01-15-13 08:23 ET (US)     8 / 30       
Hello GovernorSimulus,
Thanks for the input, it's much appreciated. We will discuss your ideas when the time is ripe. I especially liked the navy, I didn't think of it *_*

Kind regards,
Konstantin.
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 01-16-13 04:03 ET (US)     9 / 30       
Oh, one more suggestion: please, please, please get rid of the sprite limit! Or at least make it much higher. This is by far IMHO the most annoying part of C3 and that limits what can do with it. Modern computers can handle a lot more sprites than back in 1998 and the sprite limit is totally unnecessary now.
Nefermenu
Pleb
posted 01-17-13 06:09 ET (US)     10 / 30       
Please add the roadblocks! If you don't want or need them, don't use them. But they should be available to those (us) that want them.
Eswen
Pleb
posted 01-20-13 14:21 ET (US)     11 / 30       
Actually I had an idea to add roadblocks but make them difficulty specific (as well as map specific).

Anyways, I could use a little input from you:
We are debating whether we should implement the game as 3D or isometric 2D. As this would be very important and will shape much of the project onward I'd like to get some well-founded opinions.

Regards.
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 01-21-13 00:10 ET (US)     12 / 30       
I would say isometric 2D, but I don't have much experience with 3D strategy games (like I understand Caesar IV is) so I could be biased against it.
Nefermenu
Pleb
posted 01-29-13 11:02 ET (US)     13 / 30       
Isometric 2D.

I much prefer the look of these old classic games. They've got style.
Eswen
Pleb
posted 02-13-13 02:38 ET (US)     14 / 30       
Sorry guys. It was decided that it will be a 3D game, but still we decided to keep the static Caesar3-like camera. We are still in the discussing stage, but hopefully we'll start programming soon. Also I could throw a link or two, if anyone would be interested, as soon as our designer has concept sketches ...

Regards.
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 02-13-13 17:22 ET (US)     15 / 30       
Also I could throw a link or two, if anyone would be interested, as soon as our designer has concept sketches ...
Do.
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 02-17-13 22:15 ET (US)     16 / 30       
It was decided that it will be a 3D game, but still we decided to keep the static Caesar3-like camera.
Question: Does this mean that if you rotate the 'camera view' buildings will have different looking "sides?" I am having difficulty imagining 3D with a "Caesar3-like camera."
Eswen
Pleb
posted 02-18-13 01:19 ET (US)     17 / 30       
Question: Does this mean that if you rotate the 'camera view' buildings will have different looking "sides?" I am having difficulty imagining 3D with a "Caesar3-like camera."
Yes, they would. But you'll be constrained to rotate to the 4 world directions (as it is now with Caesar 3), no arbitrary angle rotation will be provided. In essence it would look like C3, but will be done with 3D models and textures.

[This message has been edited by Eswen (edited 02-18-2013 @ 01:19 AM).]

equi
Pleb
posted 04-03-13 17:47 ET (US)     18 / 30       
GovernorSimulus,
I am having difficulty imagining 3D with a "Caesar3-like camera."
As far as I understood, it is planned to be like Simcity 4 (in the 3D regard--in all others it will be better ). You can click through a couple of clips on youtube to get an idea.


Eswen,

It's amazing that you guys are taking on such project. I wish you best luck and best everything to go with it.

I will put my thoughts together and write all things which I would think of making different if I had the chance to change something in Caesar 3. I definitely expect different players to have different opinions and even more than that I expect my own opinions to change once I learn more about the game. But it's still interesting to exchange ideas.

1. Random walkers—how they should walk?
I definitely think that some part of their walk they should walk randomly (except for not turning back if there is choice). However, making them attempt to go in all 4 directions looks like an interesting idea to me, and maybe this part should be left intact.
But if there is a truly random part in walkers' walks, then if a player builds a square consisting of many road tiles put together, then many walkers will walk like they are drunk. I would like for the algorithm to prevent it somehow (the other solution is to not allow double-width roads), but I didn't think about this a lot and this seems contradictory to my will of having more randomness in random walkers' behavior.

2. Priorities for market buyers.
As compared to Pharaoh, Caesar 3 has a whole different layer of strategy because of this minor detail (or rather the lack of it). First of all, I think that all "nearest as the crow flies" are better to be changed to "nearest by road". Then I see a couple of different approaches:
- allow the player to set what food and goods markets buy
- make market buyers buy only as many types of food as are required by the houses the market trader passes, and abandon all food priorities (e.g. if 2 types of food are needed, the market buyer will first go to the nearest granary which contains any food, and then go to the nearest which contains a different type of food).
- the hard way, in the spirit of the original game: make markets buy all types of food available and make houses eat all types of food without priorities. It will allow for the whole complexity of disconnected areas to flourish, but looking at your cities I assume you wouldn't like it.

3. Something to make clear where the building entrance/exit is.
Like an arrow when placing a building which points to the road tile the building will be adjacent to (the tile the walker will start his walks on).

4. Remove buildings with an intersection inside them.
Such buildings increase the difficulty of the game, which is a good thing, but I don't like the way in which they increase the difficulty. They are contrary to the game's logic.

5. Roadblocks.
Making them difficulty specific is a very interesting idea, however I consider a road with services at one end (and an intersection at the other) to be more basic than loop blocks. I built a couple of gatehouseless cities this way, it's nice and simple. The main problem is that markets will go to the nearest granaries and warehouses "as the crow flies".
I definitely do not want to see the Pharaoh's compact and helpful roadblock in Caesar 3 Perhaps a large gate which will look more appealing than the gatehouse and won't be as undesirable would be an ok solution.

6. Ratings based on the number of buildings.
In a game of walkers such way to calculate ratings seems a little inconsistent to me.

7. Woodcutting, hunting etc. done as in Pharaoh.
Like get some meat from those zebras

8. Farming more like in Pharaoh.
Irrigation and land fertility add a nice challenge.

9. Military ships
as GovernorSimulus suggested.

10. More gradually increasing difficulty in career scenarios.


Some little things which I very much like and don't want changed. Off the top of my head and in no particular order.

- first patrician villas are of the same size as the last plebeian houses and people are moving out when they evolve
- taxes at very hard: you pretty much have to have patricians (or all plebeians should live in the best plebeian houses) to make some profit from taxes. This is the only reason why I always play at very hard.
- that favor rating goes up when you beat Caesar's legions
- that some of the walkers make me laugh when I click on them
- that all the best houses require is more wine, more entertainment, and more desirability
- that the default difficulty is hard
Eswen
Pleb
posted 04-09-13 20:58 ET (US)     19 / 30       
Hello,
My internship in France has ended, so I'm back to the motherland and I should have more time to devote on the project.
As far as I understood, it is planned to be like Simcity 4 (in the 3D regard--in all others it will be better ). You can click through a couple of clips on youtube to get an idea.
Yes, it should look like that. Additionally, if we decide in the end to go 2D, so to be able to support tablets and the like, this way it shouldn't be much of a problem adapting.
I definitely think that some part of their walk they should walk randomly (except for not turning back if there is choice). However, making them attempt to go in all 4 directions looks like an interesting idea to me, and maybe this part should be left intact.
But if there is a truly random part in walkers' walks, then if a player builds a square consisting of many road tiles put together, then many walkers will walk like they are drunk. I would like for the algorithm to prevent it somehow (the other solution is to not allow double-width roads), but I didn't think about this a lot and this seems contradictory to my will of having more randomness in random walkers' behavior.
It depends on how the underlying programmed "ifrastructure" is organized. I'd rather treat double, triple roads (fused as in C3 plaza) as a single tile of road functionally. This way there is no problem for the pathfinding, while allowing for a square-like roads/plazas. About the amount of randomness, well mostly I expect the walkers will behave the same, with some minor tweaks I want to put in.
First of all, I think that all "nearest as the crow flies" are better to be changed to "nearest by road".
Indeed, it was decided that this would be the standard "seeking" behaviour.
- allow the player to set what food and goods markets buy
We deemed that unnecessary simplification to the gameplay, so currently it's not expected to be available.
- make market buyers buy only as many types of food as are required by the houses the market trader passes, and abandon all food priorities (e.g. if 2 types of food are needed, the market buyer will first go to the nearest granary which contains any food, and then go to the nearest which contains a different type of food).
Well, yes and no. Primarily the market are to be seeking food by distance, so if you have a close granary with fruit and a more distant one with wheat, the fruit granary will be preferred. Although, if you have fruit and wheat in the same close granary, then wheat will be used as a first foodtype. Additionally, this correlates to the planed ability to set the amount of stock type a granary (or warehouse) will hold (similarly to how it's in Pharaoh).
- the hard way, in the spirit of the original game: make markets buy all types of food available and make houses eat all types of food without priorities. It will allow for the whole complexity of disconnected areas to flourish, but looking at your cities I assume you wouldn't like it.
Not exactly true either way, because it was decided that "get goods" carts are going to be able to walk on road only (as other types of walkers). This is more consistent and also it mainly prevents the "disconnected" sectioning of a city.
3. Something to make clear where the building entrance/exit is.
I've thought about it, but have not put it to a discussion yet. We could go either way, depending on what the others will say. I'm also not convinced of the practicality, but I might be swayed, if a good argument is done.
Remove buildings with an intersection inside them.
Yes, probably this is the way we will go. While it's not so much of a problem, it's not contributing to the gameplay much to have an implicit intersection inside the granary.
5. Roadblocks.
Making them difficulty specific is a very interesting idea, however I consider a road with services at one end (and an intersection at the other) to be more basic than loop blocks. I built a couple of gatehouseless cities this way, it's nice and simple. The main problem is that markets will go to the nearest granaries and warehouses "as the crow flies".
I definitely do not want to see the Pharaoh's compact and helpful roadblock in Caesar 3 Perhaps a large gate which will look more appealing than the gatehouse and won't be as undesirable would be an ok solution.
This was one of the bigger issues around, because many players like them, others (like me) don't. So to be fair, we decided to implement them, but conditionally. What I mean is that we're going to leave the decision to the level designer. This way he could make a map with or without roadblocks. The comment about compactness is an interesting one. I think you're up to something by suggesting that it should not be as easier and nice to have it like it's in Pharaoh. Also I think I have an idea, which we'll discuss this Sunday when we meet. It's a commendable suggestion, thanks.
6. Ratings based on the number of buildings.
In a game of walkers such way to calculate ratings seems a little inconsistent to me.
It was already discussed, and yes you're right they're to be changed to be coverage based.
7. Woodcutting, hunting etc. done as in Pharaoh.
Like get some meat from those zebras.
Again, yes and no. The woodcutting and mining will be done in buildings, like in C3, but the buildings are to be build over the respective resource i.e. a woodcutter will be build upon a patch of a forest.
Farming more like in Pharaoh.
Irrigation and land fertility add a nice challenge.
We haven't discussed it yet, but probably we'll add fertility, as for irrigation I doubt it.
9. Military ships
as GovernorSimulus suggested.
Yes, these will be available, as well as some changes to the military side.
10. More gradually increasing difficulty in career scenarios.
This is a bit of afterthought for the current discussions, but I'll keep that in mind.
Some little things which I very much like and don't want changed. Off the top of my head and in no particular order.
- first patrician villas are of the same size as the last plebeian houses and people are moving out when they evolve
Yes, this will be kept, and some other niceties about the social structure will be introduced.
- taxes at very hard: you pretty much have to have patricians (or all plebeians should live in the best plebeian houses) to make some profit from taxes. This is the only reason why I always play at very hard.
In fact taxing will be changed a bit, so there will be no possibility to live on taxes alone (or at least that's the plan).
- that favor rating goes up when you beat Caesar's legions
No change is planned here whatsoever.
- that some of the walkers make me laugh when I click on them
To be honest putting music and sound is a bit fuzzy now, as we don't have clear idea or a person who could assist us at this point. But, yes, if possible we will keep the funny people, I like them too.
- that all the best houses require is more wine, more entertainment, and more desirability
This is going to be different. Patricians will require luxury goods, and more services, while wine will be required much earlier in the houses' development.
- that the default difficulty is hard
This will be kept consistent as much as possible.

[This message has been edited by Eswen (edited 04-09-2013 @ 09:02 PM).]

equi
Pleb
posted 04-10-13 05:18 ET (US)     20 / 30       
Thank you for your reply, Eswen. I enjoyed reading through it very much and I must say that I like all your ideas in it.
I'd rather treat double, triple roads (fused as in C3 plaza) as a single tile of road functionally
I like this idea. I was going to suggest it after I thought more on it, but I didn't want to edit my already lengthy post.

As for the warehouse cartpushers, it sure is consistent to forbid them from going over bare land. If markets' priorities are done properly, it won't be a problem. And it sure seems to me that you guys are gonna do them properly.
taxing will be changed a bit, so there will be no possibility to live on taxes alone
This doesn't seem bad I just don't want it to be easy to make significant money from taxes.

As for the roadblocks, making them map-specific is certainly a right thing to do.

The point of the best houses requiring only more wine, entertainment, and desirability was the least important one It sure can be changed.

Again, I wish you the best of everything with your project.
Eswen
Pleb
posted 04-10-13 17:00 ET (US)     21 / 30       
Thanks for the support equi, and I certainly appreciate your suggestions.
The point of the best houses requiring only more wine, entertainment, and desirability was the least important one It sure can be changed.
This decision was a bit driven as to conform to historical accounts. The Romans loved drinking, and my sources point that even the slaves were allotted some wine each day. This is why we pushed the wine earlier in the evolution chain. The luxury goods are expected to behave pretty much the same way though, so it's more of a renaming than anything serious.
Eswen
Pleb
posted 04-16-13 19:42 ET (US)     22 / 30       
Here are a few very rough sketches for 2 small and 2 large tents, as I promised:
Small tent 1
Small tent 2
Large tent 1
Large tent 2

I hope you won't judge too harshly, as we are just starting up ...
dalerank
Pleb
posted 04-23-13 09:52 ET (US)     23 / 30       
ew0054
Pleb
posted 11-30-13 11:34 ET (US)     24 / 30       
I like the 3D option with updated graphics that C4 brought, but the game play of C4 did not keep my interest long. Of course, having a fixed, isometric view as an option wouldn't be a bad idea, but if we have 3D capabilities, let's use them!

The issue for me in C4 was the game play. I wouldn't mind having the old walker-system back. It added a level of intricacy and balance to the management portion of the game.

Also what made C3 great (and stank about C4) was that in C3 it took a very long time to play a map because you had to evolve your city from tents. C4 lets you "plop" down for instant gratification but does not lend to the feel of progress as much.

I got C3 on sale in the early 00's and it's been one of my favorite games I keep coming back to. Was up til after midnight playing last night, trying out new housing blocks. Always something new with the game. I have been a lurker of this site since it came on. Glad to see the community is still busy!
Loprais
Pleb
posted 03-12-15 05:49 ET (US)     25 / 30       
Ave

Firstly, I would like to tell you, that I am very pleased, happy and amazed, that someone has finally undertaken this marvellous idea to make a remake of such splendid game as Caesar III is, of which I am longtime fan since it was published.
And now I would like to add some of my suggestions - overall: I don´t think,that there is need to implemet 3D technology into this superb game,I think it will spoil it.But generally I agree with new textures of buildings, landscape,hills,animals,figures,workshops with animated wokrkers and so on.Extended bussines and diplomatic realtions with cities in Imperium and beyond Imperium.

What I would also add -

Maps - large, more realistic (more similar to historical models) maps from side to side (I think,I´m not the only one, who hates,that the original Caesar III maps are ending in black nothing,in black void).I would also add detailed map of the city in Imperial map(like in Emperor) with color definition of particular types of buildings and industry.

Housing - orange color on map
Administration - black color on map,new add - courthouses,mints
Military - red color on map,new add - extended number of units,new types of units: navy - military docks, legion as primary military force (swords and two voleys of javelins) plus auxiliares (slingers,archers,etc) - blacksmiths,cavalry - stables,siege weapons?,possibility of manning and not manning the towers.
Agriculture - light green color on map,new add - apart from existing in original Caesar III: mills,new crops - such as legumes,vegetables,industry - linen,new fruits,new animals,such as -
cows(milk,cheese),sheep,goats,bees(honey)
Industry and mining - light brown color on map,new add - apart from existing in original Caesar III: new industry - textile (linen,wool),luxury goods,new mining sources - gold,silver,gems,new sources - tin(luxury goods,furniture),lead(navy),iron works and iron smelters.
Bussines - yellow color on map, possibility of changing amounts of goods in warehauses (1/4,1/3,1/2 etc),caravans with leaders
Health - white color on map
Education - purple color on map
Religion - violet color on map
City Walls and Towers - grey and dark gray color on map
Water Industry - light blue color on map


PS - I would also add, to Campaign or Career Mode, one of the most important event in Roman history - Punic Wars.
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