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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » The Town Square » Pirated Games
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Topic Subject:Pirated Games
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zeus8923
Pleb
posted 03-12-10 02:26 ET (US)         
I know you all are going to rip me up for this so here it goes. I Just got done reading the Code of Conduct for this site and I saw this:


"You may not encourage, post in support of, link to, or discuss activities, methods, and/or techniques involving piracy, cracks, multiplayer hacks, keys and key-generators. In addition, the following are grounds for moderator action on your post and/or account:

Seeking help to create cracks, multiplayer hacks and key-generators
Seeking missing files that are supplied with installation CD(s)
Admitting to possess pirated materials, cracks, multiplayer hacks and key-generators
Admitting to distribute pirated materials, cracks, multiplayer hacks, keys and key-generators
Admitting to the use of cracks, multiplayer hacks and key-generators
Uploading any such files to HeavenGames sites

Generally breaking this rule will result in an instant permanent ban. However you may be given a warning for a first offence if, in our opinion, you are a new forumer who doesn’t understand why this is such a strict rule – this will be explained to you; any subsequent offences will result in a permanent ban."


Well I am a new forumer who doesn't understand why this is such a strict rule, so can someone explain this to me and can we possibly debate about this issue?
AuthorReplies:
TuShaWuJin
Pleb
(id: shaun1)
posted 03-12-10 14:22 ET (US)     1 / 57       
no comment
zeus8923
Pleb
posted 03-12-10 17:55 ET (US)     2 / 57       
Really? No comment? You can't even defend why the site doesn't allow anyone to discuss or provide support for pirated games?
TuShaWuJin
Pleb
(id: shaun1)
posted 03-12-10 21:25 ET (US)     3 / 57       
Legally, ethically and morally; the pirated material sites(specifically those that are providing the torrent bandwidth as well as the material) and those that use them are conducting theft of money and intellectual property.
Just my opinion, I wouldn't push too hard on the subject of trying to defend the thieves.

[This message has been edited by TuShaWuJin (edited 03-12-2010 @ 09:51 PM).]

zeus8923
Pleb
posted 03-12-10 22:24 ET (US)     4 / 57       
I understand your issues with pirated games, but to not give someone tech support or game advice for a game they downloaded illegally seems kind of unfair to me. I mean yes it is stealing, but its not like the people downloading games make that big of a dent in the production companies wallets. Did illegal downloads cause Sierra to fall apart and Impressions Games to shutdown? I think not. I mean, its not like everyone or even half the people for that matter who play games such as the city builder series games have downloaded them illegally. I just think the issue of piracy needs to be re-examined. I find your comment about defending thieves interesting though, as I look at the above topic "Dutch Date XVI" and I read a post about someone exchanging and trading drivers licenses. I know that can't be legal (felony I believe to have someones license that isn't your own in some states) but no one says a thing about that.
TuShaWuJin
Pleb
(id: shaun1)
posted 03-12-10 22:42 ET (US)     5 / 57       
drivers licenses
Perhaps you need to reread the post. Many States require that you surrender your 'out-of-state' license before they will issue their State Driving License. Being in the military can be a pain as every 2 years your moving and having to get the Local State Driving License. There was a time that your Military ID and an 'out-of-state' drivers license was enough in some States, but I imagine since the 'Department of Homeland Security' was made that it has changed. Your car registration is expected to match the State your Driving License is issued.

[This message has been edited by TuShaWuJin (edited 03-12-2010 @ 10:59 PM).]

Prefect Marty
Pleb
posted 03-13-10 03:48 ET (US)     6 / 57       
Well zeus, programming is very hard work. one mistake, and that mistake can be very hard to dedect, for example one /,can ruin an entire programm. So those who are so kind and make some great games for you deserve to be paid for it, don´t they?
zeus8923
Pleb
posted 03-13-10 21:25 ET (US)     7 / 57       
TuShaWuJin,

The way I read the post it seemed to me like the person was just trading and exchanging for other peoples licences, but I could be wrong.

Prefect Marty ,

I believe that programmers should be paid, I'm not against that. The way I look at the subject parallels how the music industry and artists view piracy. Do you think its really that big of a deal if I download some songs for free? Does that really prevent some artist from getting a gold plated shark tank bar installed next to their pool or does it really force them to downgrade to the gulf stream jet 3 series which doesn't even have a remote control for its surround sound dvd player? Likewise, because a game is torrented from a site, do you think its going to impact the developers sales that much? I mean, before the internet all you had to do was give your game to your friends and they could play it, and then with cd burners you could copy the discs. I don't know I just feel like the issue of piracy is blown up a little to much. I mean, if you even admit to having downloaded pirated a game the rules say you should be banned. Seems a little harsh to me.
TuShaWuJin
Pleb
(id: shaun1)
posted 03-14-10 04:05 ET (US)     8 / 57       
before the internet all you had to do was give your game to your friends and they could play it
Yeah, that is still legal. The problem is when you try to continue using the game by creating a duplicate before handing it over to your friend. Did you know that software companies were 'copy-protecting' there software, so people couldn't do this, way back in the early 80's, when 5.25 floppy disks was the normal media.
and then with cd burners you could copy the discs
Them software companies still 'copy-protecting' and various users/organizations still finding new ways to steal the software.

The internet is just another medium and theft is still theft.
the rules say you should be banned. Seems a little harsh to me
It is not like you are going to prison and having to explain the situation to every employer the rest of your life.

Just remember this attitude when your 'identity' has been stolen or when your college fund/retirement account gets emptied.

[This message has been edited by TuShaWuJin (edited 03-14-2010 @ 04:20 AM).]

GillB
EXCO Alumna in Kul Tiras
posted 03-14-10 04:11 ET (US)     9 / 57       
I can't believe I'm having to explain this but:

1. It's illegal. If we allow people to say they've done something illegal then we're in danger of being shut down.

2. At several of our Heavens, Game Developers post to discuss their game. I think it very unlikely they would do so if we were seen to be advocating the theft of their game.

3. People working for game developers are *not* multi-millionaire rock stars. Most work on very short-term contracts and, if a new game doesn't sell well, then they will be fired. There's no stability at all and many work at or below the minimum wage (ie they get the minimum wage, but have to work much unpaid overtime). Every game sale matters.

4. Even if you don't understand the legality, it's also morally wrong. It's theft. Illegally downloading a game is the same as walking into a shop and walking out with a game without paying for it.

As for Terikel's licence thing - he was talking about exchanging his licence when moving to different states/countries.

'Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened' Moving Pictures
zeus8923
Pleb
posted 03-14-10 18:51 ET (US)     10 / 57       
GillB,

I doubt this site would get shut down if people admit to having illegally downloaded games. Take youtube for example, I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of videos of people admitting to have engaged in illegal behaviors (drugs, theft, and the whatnot) and that site seems to be doing just fine so I think your first point seems a little absurd.

As for your comment about multi-million dollar rock stars, I didn't say the programmers were the ones who made all the money, I am referring to the companies (EA for example). I understand that sales matter but I do not think the overall amount of piracy is going to affect those developers jobs. I can see your point about no stability in the industry, but thats just the nature of a lot of industries, especially in sales.


And as for theft issue I guess I just look at it differently than a lot of you on here. I find the morality argument to be very weak on this issue, as the issue of morals and morality is not a clear cut issue. I mean, if I see a 20 dollar bill on the ground and there is no one around then I'm going to take it, and I would assume most of the people on this site would and I guess thats technically theft. Thats why I just don't see how something like torrenting is that bad. The game is already out there so if someone wants to take it, then so be it. Now I have never torrented anything and I have bought all the games I have such as the city builder games. But if someone were to tell me that they torrented a game I wouldn't hold that against them.
ES_tonian
Pleb
posted 03-14-10 19:58 ET (US)     11 / 57       
Hope you won't ban be for my opinion.

Pirating is legally wrong but morally right. File exchange is technological progress. You can't stop it. It's the future. It's like if 100 years ago people would start banning and outlawing cars, because those who make business out of horses would lose their business. This is ridiculous.

New ways in gaming industry emerge, new games: WoW, Counter Strike, Starcraft, Diablo, Cities XL, etc. where multiplayer gameplay becomes central. Multiplayer access you can control, unlike downloading of pirate copy.

New ways of playing emerge while old -- phase out.
PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 03-15-10 05:49 ET (US)     12 / 57       
I understand that sales matter but I do not think the overall amount of piracy is going to affect those developers jobs.
You are aware that alone in 2008, there was pirated (stolen) software for more then 5 Billion US$? That is more then: 5.000.000.000.000 US$ or about equal to the GDP of Mongolia in 2008. Some estimates say the value of pirated software reached 6 Billion US$ in 2009.

In 2009 all the major publishers had to shut down some of their studios, some of them for getting out of the red ink. Those 5.000.000.000.000+ US$ stolen from them in 2008 would have done a difference in 2009 even after taxes and paying the investors.
Pirating is legally wrong but morally right.
To steal like that can never be morally right. Your analogy to when cars showed up also is wrong as many horse dealers adapted and started a car dealership instead, they didn't pirate cars which they then sold. For your analogy to work we would have to invent something else than software that would do the same as our current software but on a totally different platform. Also, what you actually do when paying when you receive the game is more close to leasing the software as you are not buying the software as the publisher retains the rights to all intellectual property and the rights to the software itself.

The difference from actually leasing the software is that you don't have to deliver the media with the software back after you don't need it anymore. WoW and similar games bought digitally are the closest we get to leasing the software: You pay for using it a specific time, extras cost extra money, Blizzard takes care of maintenance but you are to pay the running costs and also the 'storage space' for the software (the "garage" if it was a car).

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
shelper
HG Alumnus
(id: Smileyshelper)
posted 03-15-10 07:12 ET (US)     13 / 57       
I understand that sales matter but I do not think the overall amount of piracy is going to affect those developers jobs.
I think that's a kind of a weak argument.

Here's how i see it:

Either you don't think what you're doing is wrong, and you encourage everybody to do it. It's then going to make an even bigger difference than it already does, and gaming companies certainly do go bankrupt. If everybody does what you do, every single person, how can you not see this destroying the gaming industry?

- OR -

You admit you know what you're doing is wrong, but you're counting on all the other people who *do* pay for games to make up for it. In which case it has nothing to do with legality or morality, it's just selfishness. You're for some reason more deserving (possibly because you know how to pirate) than other people to get free games.

Or there could be a third option i'm missing.

It's like watching a flock of clown-like apes trying to navigate a ship, even though the ship has in fact been stranded on some kind of reef for about 7 years and none of the apes have noticed it yet. -Drahnier on OD moderation.
TuShaWuJin
Pleb
(id: shaun1)
posted 03-15-10 08:18 ET (US)     14 / 57       
3 angels and not one of you googles 'ES_tonian'?
Shame on you.

PS: What is with the 'Who's online' external window showing people that are not shown on 'Forum Information' section(bottom of CBH main). I suspect that its the server side scripting isn't feeding updated information to the CBH page on a refresh. HG main behavior is normal so it seems to be a CBH problem.

[This message has been edited by TuShaWuJin (edited 03-15-2010 @ 09:35 AM).]

PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 03-15-10 11:57 ET (US)     15 / 57       
3 angels and not one of you googles 'ES_tonian'?
Shame on you.
Why shame on the mods? Reading his post clearly tells his stance so I would likely find some place where he offers advice with hacking or maybe even downloads. As long as he don't break the rules here at HG he is free to post.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
ES_tonian
Pleb
posted 03-15-10 14:52 ET (US)     16 / 57       
I am not so bad lol. I buy games I like out of principe and for collection purposes, including Caesar III and Caesar IV. I like this site, like it's very helpful people and respect it.

I just shared my libertarian ideas. Want to know my ontological perception please consider Rousseau, Friedman, Schumpeter and Spenser.

I don't think it is morally right to let record companies and big fat microsoft to pocket millions without any innovation by simply banning technological progress. It won't last long because it hinders human liberty, liberty to choose.

As for Caesar series please buy it, game is great, I want more!
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 03-15-10 20:32 ET (US)     17 / 57       
Es_tonian: Just out curiosity, where you from?

PS: Isn't there a special section of the HG forums for discussions involving the word "ontology?"

PPS: Somebody brought up the subject of game developers sometimes appearing in te forums. I seem to recall some people like that with blue fonted names in the C3 forums a really long time ago when I first signed up for HG. Does anybody remember any of their names? I am curious about reading those threads again.

[This message has been edited by GovernorSimulus (edited 03-15-2010 @ 08:38 PM).]

PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 03-16-10 05:32 ET (US)     18 / 57       
PS: Isn't there a special section of the HG forums for discussions involving the word "ontology?"
I don't know what the word "ontology" means (but I have read about an exciting innovative project from Microsoft called "Natal" )
Maybe you are thinking at The Library? ES_tonian can try discuss piracy there but it's been done before and the subject is so hot it usually leads to a closed thread and people getting warned or close to banned. It is a red carpet on some people just like politics and religion.

Currently I believe bobT is the only VIP posting here at the CB forums (I believe he has had a down periode or something) and then I know a few of the Firefly people sometimes post in the Stronghold Heaven forums. Some of the people from TiltedMill have posted here but I can not remember their names.

I don't know about all the other games we have forums for as I don't have time going there.
I don't think it is morally right to let record companies and big fat microsoft to pocket millions without any innovation by simply banning technological progress. It won't last long because it hinders human liberty, liberty to choose.
Innovation what the music industry (or record companies as you call them) goes would mean finding more ways to maximize the profit on the music they sell. Remember, the music industry lives from finding bands and musicians and then sign contracts with them, the music industry does not make the music, they find it. A band or a musician who sells lots of music get a bigger bite of the cake and might end up rich while those selling less gets a smaller bite of the cake and earns for their living if they are lucky. On the bottom line, making illegal copies of music steals money from the artist(s). Above also goes what the movie industry goes.

Microsoft not being innovative and banning technological progress? If that were the case I would be writing this post from a computer running MSDOS and not WinXP. Have you heard about Natal? If not I would suggest you do some research. Did you know that a major reason for the development of Vista taking so long time was R&D in a new file system? MS ended up scrapping several years of work and starting from scratch thereby learning an expensive lesson about being too innovative too fast.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.

[This message has been edited by PCDania (edited 03-16-2010 @ 12:09 PM).]

ES_tonian
Pleb
posted 03-16-10 13:30 ET (US)     19 / 57       
wow, natal is an impresssive peace of technology, that's true

PCDania, If you downdload music for free, it's the record company which suffers and not in any way the artist. The competition secures that. An example: Let's say you rent a house. Next month you receive less salary, then will you say to your landlord that this month you will pay him less rent? you wish He will just kick you out and find another person. Exactly the same is regarding the music. Competition promotes efficiency and piracy promotes competition. Of course if you have monopoly or oligopoly then yeah, it's true. But it's not an oil or gas markets, it's data recording market for god sake: millions of companies.

Big companies today are terribly inefficient. So much money are wasted.

GovernorSimulus, Scandinavia
PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 03-17-10 11:50 ET (US)     20 / 57       
PCDania, If you downdload music for free, it's the record company which suffers and not in any way the artist.
If I download the music for free, how is the artist expected to pay house rent, food, cloth, and what else is needed to be paid?

If you want to make a competion to the music industry you would have to find a better way for the artists to record their music and then sell it thereby making sure the artists earn more then they currently do.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
smash maniac
Pleb
posted 06-28-10 16:33 ET (US)     21 / 57       
You are aware that alone in 2008, there was pirated (stolen) software for more then 5 Billion US$? That is more then: 5.000.000.000.000 US$ or about equal to the GDP of Mongolia in 2008. Some estimates say the value of pirated software reached 6 Billion US$ in 2009.

In 2009 all the major publishers had to shut down some of their studios, some of them for getting out of the red ink. Those 5.000.000.000.000+ US$ stolen from them in 2008 would have done a difference in 2009 even after taxes and paying the investors.
Does that 5 Billion dollar figure account for people who pirated the game but wouldn't have bought it in the first place?

Also, I am against pirating, which is pretty much online shoplifting.
PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 06-29-10 05:04 ET (US)     22 / 57       
Does that 5 Billion dollar figure account for people who pirated the game but wouldn't have bought it in the first place?
Probably not, on the other hand, lots of games are only played through once (mostly because there are new games released all the time and you just have so many hours in a day) so the claim about first trying out on a pirated game before buying is only a bad excuse in most cases so it would not make a difference worth talking about. Even so, it's still online shoplifting as you call it.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
ColdCanuck
Pleb
(id: Coldviper)
posted 07-04-10 23:58 ET (US)     23 / 57       
Here is how I see it.

1. You can never say it is mortally wrong for me to make a copy of a game then burn several copies and give it out to my friends. Yes?
2. I would however call it morally wrong to make copies of that game then set up a stall in the marketplace and start selling them.
3. Sharing. You cannot say sharing is wrong.
4. If we're talking about songs and movies no worry about the people going out of business. They make most of their money from live shows and box office sales.
5. I would never torrent a game I like. I realize that no matter how little money the artist makes I still believe that they deserved it and will happily give it to them. I would(hypothetically) download a game I have already bought.

The car example was garbage. It should have gone like this.

If I see a nice car in the parking lot and study it for a few hours then go to my shop and build an exact replica can they say I can't do that? I'm not sure. Can they?

I personally buy my games because it comes with a Manuel, nice box, CD(That I usually make a disc image of to keep it from being wrecked), and the benefit of not having to go through the hassle of finding out the game server doesn't allow illegal versions etc etc.

So to sum it all up.

Downloading files for free is not wrong. Game developers don't have any other way to make money on their games so I would say that you should not download games. However you can not say it is morally wrong or else you would have to say no copying whatsoever.

But I would encourage you if only for convenience to buy your games from EBgames or wherever you get your games.

This is all hypothetical. I may or may not have done any of the things I have just described.
kenai
Pleb
posted 08-10-10 15:20 ET (US)     24 / 57       
@ above poster

you're right, its not illegal to recreate a nice looking car. After all, that means you made it.

But all that really proves is that it wouldn't be illegal for you to make a game similar to Caesar. Make, not steal. Slight difference.
PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 08-11-10 04:11 ET (US)     25 / 57       
1. You can never say it is mortally wrong for me to make a copy of a game then burn several copies and give it out to my friends. Yes?
It is only OK if the copyright holder of the game has said it is OK, otherwise it is morally and legally wrong. (I suppose the 't' in 'mortally' was a spelling error, it would be even more wrong to kill someone for making illegal copies of other peoples copyrighted material)
3. Sharing. You cannot say sharing is wrong.
Sharing by making copies and then giving to your friends: see reply above. Same thing just a different name. Sharing by having people play one of your games on your computer is not wrong as long as the game stays on your computer.
4. If we're talking about songs and movies no worry about the people going out of business. They make most of their money from live shows and box office sales.
There are still copyright holders so see my first reply.
5. I would never torrent a game I like. I realize that no matter how little money the artist makes I still believe that they deserved it and will happily give it to them. I would(hypothetically) download a game I have already bought.
That is still not legal unless the copyright holder says otherwise. Buying a game is comparable to buying a ticket to the cinema or to the rollercoaster. You pay for using the game, seing the movie, getting a ride in the rollercoaster in the amusement park. You don't buy the actual game (the code), the movie or the rollercoaster. You also don't own the taxi if you pay for a ride.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
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