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Topic Subject:Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Industries in Zeus
JonN
Pleb
posted 04-03-01 02:01 ET (US)         

Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Industries in Zeus

Version 0.0     4/02/2001       Jon Newman, with thanks to Caesar Alan

Overview

Many scenarios present special challenges for the placement of industries and storage. How can you keep your industries working at 100% efficiency, delivering goods promptly, with as little storage yard overhead as possible?

Troubleshooting

“The production is stuck at 100%”: If production on an item finishes before the deliveryman has returned from delivering the last item, production stalls at 100%. See the section below titled “Deliverymen”.

“My building collapsed / caught fire”: Your building does not have reliable access from a Maintenance Shed, or your Maintenance Shed is undermanned. See the section below titled “Maintenance Sheds”.

“My building cannot access the labor pool”: Your building does not have a walkable connection with the Greece entrypoint. See the section below titled “Access to Labor”.

“My deliveryman just sits there”: Deliverymen for production buildings need a road connection to some building which can accept their goods. Some deliverymen for Storage Yards will leave the road if necessary but need a walkable connection to their destination. See the section below titled “Deliverymen”.

“I don’t see my deliveryman”: Deliverymen will travel quite a distance to their destination, and will deliver to a distant production building in preference to a close Storage Yard.

Efficiency Tips

  • Storage Yards are set to accept everything except Wheat when you first build them. Leaving them that way will result in a chaotic and inefficient flow of goods.  Immediately after building a Storage Yard, right-click it, click the “accept none” button, and set the Storage Yard to accept only the goods it is meant to accept.
  • Olive Presses, Wineries, Armories and Sculpture Studios can be up to 54 tiles from the Storage Yards which accept their products.
  • Grower’s Lodges should be right next to the Storage Yards which accept their grapes and olives, and as close as possible to the grapevines and olive trees.
  • Wheat Farms can be as far as you like from your Granaries and Storage Yards, as long as they are linked by road.
  • Hunting Lodges should be close to boar breeding grounds and not too far from a Granary. Only build one Hunting Lodge per breeding ground.
  • Fishing Piers and Urchin Quays should be as close as possible to some Fishing Spot / Urchin Spot and not too far from a Granary. Build as many as you like.
  • One Storage Yard can deliver six loads of raw materials per year to each of four production buildings at a distance of about 50 tiles.
  • One “getting” Storage Yard can move 48 loads/year from an “accepting” Storage Yard 50 tiles away. This is enough to provide six loads/year to each of eight production buildings, if the production buildings are within about 20 tiles and grouped together.
  • Olive Presses, Wineries, and Armories (when not blessed) consume and generate six loads/year. Sculpture Studios consume 24 loads/year and generate six statues/year.

Industry and Housing

While housing blocks need careful placement and lots of support structures, production and storage buildings can go anywhere convenient. Typically, you will sneak these buildings in the spaces between your housing blocks and land features. Appeal only matters to housing. However, some buildings have negative appeal, so keep those a few tiles away from your housing; see http://irvdon.topcities.com/Zeus/Data/Structures_Very_Hard.htm for details.

Maintenance Sheds

The only support structures you need for your non-housing areas are maintenance sheds. Divide your roads which contain buildings into segments no more than 43 tiles long, or loops no longer than 80 tiles long. Avoid intersections if at all possible; use roadblocks to keep the segments and loops separate. A single maintenance shed at one end of the segment, or anywhere on a loop, will prevent fires and collapse all along the segment or loop.

Beware labor shortages; if your maintenance sheds shut down and buildings start burning/collapsing, you can kick off an expensive chain reaction. You may want to give Hygiene and Safety high priority in the Workforce Allocation dialog to prevent this (click the Industry tab and then the details box to get to the Workforce Allocation dialog). By structuring your city efficiently, you can minimize the number of Maintenance Sheds so that this has less effect on your other work categories.

Access to Labor

In Pharoah, you needed “feeder houses” on your industrial road segments, but these are unnecessary in Zeus. Zeus buildings can obtain labor from the city’s labor pool as long as they have a walkable connection with the Greece entrypoint. The entrypoint is the place where your immigrants enter the map. You don’t need to connect to the entrypoint with roads, but if you block off all access or don’t have a bridge over the water, the buildings on the wrong side will shut down.

Deliverymen

In order to deliver goods efficiently, it is important to understand the habits of the various types of deliverymen.

Once a deliveryman has set off, he will always travel the full distance to his destination. If the destination building is deleted, the deliveryman will continue to where it was, then look for a new destination or else return to his source. If a deliveryman is carrying goods when his source building is deleted, the deliveryman will still continue, becoming a deliveryman from “nowhere” and disappearing once the delivery is complete. However, if there is no immediate destination for the goods, the “nowhere” deliveryman and his goods will disappear immediately; he will not wait for a destination to appear.

Production Deliverymen

Deliverymen for most production buildings (Wineries, Olive Presses, Armories, Sculpture Studios, Growers’ Lodges, Hunting Lodges, Fishing Piers, Urchin Quays) can carry 1 load of goods at 54 tiles/month. This means buildings which produce 6 units/year (wineries, olive presses, armories, sculpture studios) can deliver the full output of their building up to 54 tiles. These deliverymen always follow roads, and cannot make deliveries unless there is a road connecting them with some building which will accept their goods.

Productivity (loads/year)

Delivery distance

6

54

9

36

12

27

16

20

Storage Yards each have one production deliveryman, who is essentially like a production building deliverymen except that he can carry 4 loads of goods (but only one sculpture).

Yard Deliverymen

I am still trying to figure out how many deliverymen a Storage Yard has; I have seen as many as three from a single Storage Yard. The production deliveryman is described above, and up to two other deliverymen are activated by various combinations of “get” and “empty” orders. I am still trying to figure out their exact behavior, my best guess is below.

“Get” deliverymen appear when the Storage Yard is set to Get some product and has space for it, or when some other Storage Yard is set to Get some product that this Storage Yard contains. They always appear at the Storage Yard which contains the product. When one Storage Yard is set to “get” a product and another is set to “accept”, the “getting” Storage Yard will send two Get deliveryman to transfer the item whenever the “accepting” Storage Yard has any. This allows for total transfer of 48 loads/year between the two Storage Yards at a distance of 54 tiles. Get deliverymen will follow roads if there are any, otherwise they will travel overland – this can actually create an incentive to partition some areas from your main road network! Each deliveryman can deliver 4 items at a time, thus a pair of “accepting” and “getting” Storage Yards can transfer 48 items per year over a distance of 54 tiles.

“Empty” deliverymen appear when the Storage Yard is set to Empty some product it contains, and a Storage Yard, production building, or Granary can receive it. They follow roads. When one Storage Yard is set to “empty” a product and another is set to “accept”, the “emptying” Storage Yard with send one Empty deliveryman plus the production deliveryman.

Granary Deliverymen

Granaries do not have production deliverymen, but they do seem to have Get/Empty deliverymen which are similar to those at Storage Yards. Granaries can “get” wheat from Storage Yards, and vice versa.

Pier / Trading Post Deliverymen

Piers and trading posts have one Distribute deliveryman and one Retrieve deliveryman. They carry four loads and can only travel on roads. Once goods are delivered to a Pier or Trading Post for sale, they can never be retrieved.

Agora Vendors

Markets cannot receive goods directly from production buildings (except for horses). The Food Vendor can only get food from Granaries, the Horse Trainer can only get horses from Horse Ranches, and other vendors can only get goods from Storage Yards. Goods which are received by an Agora can never be retrieved.

I don’t have figures on exactly how much of each type of item is consumed by housing at the various levels, or how much each house will try to stockpile.

Moving Goods Long Distances

With the right combinations of buildings, you can move goods unlimited distances. If you want to conserve your capital and your workforce, you need to take advantage of the deliverymen which come with your various building types. If your delivery capability falls behind, your goods will clog up along the delivery cycle, and your production buildings will eventually stall when their deliveryman takes too long to deliver product. Stalled production due to delayed delivery does not turn up in the “See Problems” view, so it is important to keep an eye out for this.

The problem is slightly different for each type of product, and for each landscape. Here are some typical scenarios:

Simple Close Scenario: A Carding Shed is located 40 tiles from a Storage Yard which accepts fleece.

Complex Close Scenario: A Foundry is located very close to bronze ore-bearing rock. Three Armories are 20 tiles from the Foundry. The Dock or Storage Yard which accepts the resulting armor is within 50 tiles of the Armories.

Transfer Scenario: Six Carding Sheds are located 40 tiles from a Storage Yard which accepts fleece. Another Storage Yard is set to “get” fleece and is 50 tiles from the “accepting” Storage Yard.

Food Production

The productivity of food production buildings (except Farms) depends on their distance from the food source (boar breeding ground, fishing spot, urchin spot). The distance they can deliver their goods without stalling the supply chain is inversely proportional to their productivity. If you need to deliver goods further than that, you can either build extra food production buildings and accept that they will not achieve maximum efficiency, or you can build a nearby “accepting” Granary and set the distant Granary to “get”. Granaries have eight times the delivery capability of production buildings. Note that Granaries cost 18 workers, so only do this if you are serving several food production buildings (or one across a tremendous distance).

Building Type

Distance From Source

Loads/Year

Delivery Range

Workers

Loads/Worker

/Year

Wheat Farm

Not Applicable

8

unlimited

10

0.8

Hunting Lodge

Close

15

20

8

1.9

Hunting Lodge

20

12

27

8

1.5

Fishing Pier

Close

16

20

10

1.6

Fishing Pier

20

8

40

10

0.8

Urchin Quay

Close

12

27

10

1.2

Urchin Quay

20

7

45

10

0.7

Dairy

Not critical

8

40

8

1

Farms

Wheat Farms (I have no experience with Carrot Farms) are particularly easy to work with. They can be built on any 3x3 plot with at least one tile of meadow, and produce 8 loads of grain every January if they were fully staffed for the year. Wheat Farm deliverymen appear in January, loaded with the produce for the whole year. Your Granary can be as far from the Wheat Farm as you like, so you don’t need to use intermediary Storage Yards; but they do have to be linked by road. Note that Wheat Farm deliverymen always deliver to Storage Yards in preference to Granaries.

Hunting Lodges

Hunting Lodges are efficient food sources, but are tricky to work with. They must be placed near a boar breeding ground, which will generate around 15 boars/year. The hunters should be able to harvest just about all of those if the lodge is close enough, yielding 15 loads of pork/year.

Fishing Piers

Fishing Piers can generate as much as 16 loads of fish/year if they are very close to a fishing ground; productivity drops for every tile of distance. An unlimited number of fishing boats can work the same fishing spot at full efficiency. Fishing boats will continue to operate even if the delivery cart has not returned, but the Fishing Pier will only store one load of fish; the rest are thrown away.

Urchin Quays

Urchin Quays can generate as much as 12 loads of urchins/year. An unlimited number of Urchin Quays can work the same urchin spot at full efficiency. Urchin Quays can store five loads of urchins (their storage level is not displayed anywhere) plus one load in the cart, after which they stop issuing urchin gatherers.

Raw Materials

Foundries and Mines send three miners to mine ore-bearing rock at 25 units/trip, and only one miner at a time can mine any individual rock. They achieve maximum efficiency when their miners only need to travel one or two tiles to reach rocks. Be careful not to block access to the rocks with your mining/extraction buildings.

The following table displays the income generated by each type of building.  The prices are from the Economic Sandbox, and may vary. You should also consider the cost of Piers / Trading Posts and Storage Yards when you choose an export industry.

Building

Exports

Distance

Loads/Year

Price

Workers

Drachmas/Worker/Year

Foundry

Bronze

Close

16

110

15

117

Mint

none

Close

5

100

15

33

Timber Mill

Wood

Close

12

75

12

75

Masonry Shop

Marble

Up to 20

12

84

15

67

Foundries

Foundries are excellent generators of export income, producing as much as 16 bronze/year under ideal conditions. They deliver bronze immediately when they have 100 available. Delivering 16 loads/year requires that a delivery point be within 20 tiles of the Foundry.

Mints

Mints produce around 500 drachmas/year at maximum efficiency. They may appear less desirable than other Raw Materials producers from the above table, but remember that Mints do not require Storage Yards, Docks or any support other than Maintenance Sheds. When 200 silver is available, Mints begin the 1-2 month process of converting 200 silver into 100 drachmas. Mines only store 300 silver, and don’t start converting until they have 200. In Pharoah, the silver had to be delivered to the Palace; but in Zeus, the drachmas are automatically deposited, so no delivery is necessary.

Timber Mills

Timber Mills produce as much as 12 wood/year under ideal conditions. They work much like Foundries, sending three lumberjacks to harvest wood 25 units at a time. Unlike ore-bearing rock which lasts forever, trees must grow back, but forest does grow back at a robust pace as long as you don’t clear it.

Masonry Shops

Masonry Shops work on a different cycle from Foundries, Mints and Timber Mills. They can deliver 10-12 slabs per year, as long as the quarry is no further than 20 tiles (no road needed), and the delivery destination is no further than 20 tiles (road required).

Workshops

Building

Import/Export

Loads/Year

Value Added

Workers

Drachmas/Worker

/Year

Olive Press

Olives -> Olive Oil

6

145-38 = 107

12

53

Winery

Grapes -> Wine

6

160-42 = 118

12

59

Armory

Bronze -> Armor

6

200-110 = 90

18

30

Sculpture Studio

Bronze (x4) -> Sculpture

6

640-440 = 200

18

67

Monument Construction

Many city-builders like to keep the Storage Yards and Artisan’s Guilds for building a monument disconnected from the roads in their main cities. This allows the Storage Yards to “get” marble, wood and sculpture overland, cutting diagonally across the landscape, which is faster than following roads. You can link the roads after the sanctuary is complete, enabling the gods to walk from their sanctuary to your city if it isn’t too far.

Growers’ Lodges

The tremendous productivity and low worker count for a Growers’ Lodge makes it a potentially lucrative export industry. However, these figures are somewhat skewed, since the eight Growers’ Lodge workers must be supplemented by twelve Storage Yard workers (due to the irregular production cycle) and 24 workers at the Dock or Trading Post.

Building

Exports

Distance

Loads/Year

Price

Workers

Drachmas/Worker/Year

Growers’ Lodge

Grapes

Close

25

42

8

126

Growers’ Lodge

Olives

Close

25

38

8

118

For maximum efficiency from your Growers’ Lodges, you should

  • Keep Storage Yards which accept grapes/olives as close as possible to your Growers’ Lodge. A Growers’ Lodge’s three harvesters can easily exceed its five-load storage capacity, before its one deliveryman (actually, one for olives and one for grapes) can move the goods to a Storage Yard (Storage Yard deliverymen cannot make pickups from production buildings). Your harvesters stop working when your Growers’ Lodge is full, which may leave some of your harvest to rot in the fields. Having the Storage Yard right across the street from the Growers’ Lodge is best.
  • Keep your vines/trees as close to the Growers’ Lodge as possible, to get maximum use from your cultivator.

Each Growers’ Lodge has one cultivator and three harvesters. The harvesters only appear at harvest time, October-December for grapes, and January-March for olives. Also, the harvesters only appear if they can reach a vine/tree to be harvested, and if the Growers’ Lodge has space to store grapes/olives (it can store 5 loads of each). Cultivators will head for a nearby tree/vine which needs pruning; they seem to behave pretty sensibly overall. Harvesters, on the other hand, will go to the nearest vine/tree needing harvesting, even if it is on the other side of the map.

Vines/trees which have not been harvested drop to “0% ripe” at the end of the three month harvest. However, vines/trees which are not yet harvestable (ripeness below 33% or so) will remain partially ripe and deliver normally next year.

Kraken says: “As I recall, plants that haven't been tended in 6 or more months halve their growth (ripening) rate, and plants that aren't tended in 10 or more months stop ripening altogether. The ripeness percentage equals the number of units harvested. After a harvest, the "last visited" counter is reset to zero for all plants.”

I have seen harvests of 25 loads/year from a single Growers’ Lodge under ideal conditions. This is about the maximum a single cultivator can generate. If your Growers’ Lodge is right next to the Storage Yard, your three harvesters will be able to bring in the full harvest in three months, even if you are only planting vines or only planting olives.

Finally, note that Growers’ Lodges only use eight workers each. You can probably afford to build one or two extra if you need to bend these rules and use every bit of scarce meadowland.

Herding

Dairies and Carding Sheds work essentially the same. You can have up to eight sheep/goats for each Carding Shed / Dairy. Sheep/goats produce once per year, starting six months after you create them, producing one load of fleece/cheese each time. If you have fewer than eight sheep/goats per Carding Shed / Dairy, occasionally more will be born.

Paraphrasing forum member Hetera: Shepherds and goatherds will walk to the next animal to be milked/shorn, even if they are on the other side of the map. Keep all your sheep in one area and all your goats in one area (it’s your choice whether to make that the same area).

I haven’t tested this, but I’m guessing that Carding Sheds and Dairies can safely be 40 tiles from their herds.  Note, however, that sheep and goats wander aimlessly over the entire meadow, and the shepherds and goatherds don’t seem to gather them together, nor do they provide any protection against wolves.

Carding Sheds

Building

Exports

Distance

Loads/Year

Price

Workers

Drachmas/Worker/Year

Carding Shed

Fleece

Not critical

8

60

8

60

Dairies

Building Type

Distance From Source

Loads/Year

Delivery Range

Workers

Loads/Worker

/Year

Dairy

Not critical

8

40

8

1

Wolves

If you need to use a meadow for animals, but there is a wolf breeding ground nearby, there are several ways to keep the wolves under control. The easiest is to build a wall of buildings (or a literal wall) between the wolf breeding ground and where you keep your herd. You can also station a company of rabble near the breeding ground to kill the wolves, but this costs a lot of workers (eight per rabble, 64 for a full company), and the wolves always come back once the rabble leave.

Horse Ranches

Horse Ranches produce six horses/year. They do not have an independent delivery capability, nor can Storage Yards pick up or deliver horses; only a Horse Trainer in an Agora can pick up horses. It is important to keep the Horse Ranch close to the Horse Trainer, although it is also difficult; the Horse Trainer is in an Agora serving elite housing, and the Horse Ranch has strongly negative appeal which interferes with elite housing.

Caesar Alan says: The Horse Ranch generates six horses/year at a cost of 50 units of wheat each. In addition, Horses in a Horse Ranch cost 10 units of wheat/month just to store, which is another incentive to move them to a Trainer as soon as possible. Remember that Horse Ranches can only receive grain from Storage Yards.

Building on Plateaus

Some scenarios have sections of land which form plateaus, areas of elevated ground surrounded by cliffs. You will generally see one or more “ramps” on the cliff; you can’t build roads on the cliff, but walkers which do not require roads can cross them. You generally don’t want to build housing on a plateau, since you won’t be able to link it to your Palace and get rabble units. However, you can build industries on the plateau and use Get deliverymen to move goods up or down, or build an export-only industry on the plateau with its own export trading post. You can also place herds on the plateau and leave the Carding Sheds / Dairies below. If there are no ramps, then the land on the plateau is useless; buildings on the plateau will have no access to labor.

Definitions

I use these terms as follows in this document:

Production Buildings: These are buildings which produce goods: Raw Materials (Foundries, Masonry Shops, Timber Mills), Workshops (Wineries, Olive Presses, Sculpture Studios, Armories), Growers’ Lodges, Hunting Lodges, Fishing Piers, Urchin Quays, Wheat Farms and Carrot Farms. I do not include Horse Ranches since they have no independent delivery capability.

Load: Storage Yards and Granaries store up to 4 loads of goods in each of their 8 tiles. Production deliverymen can carry 1 load, and Storage Yard deliverymen can carry 4 loads. Sculptures are a special case; only one sculpture fits into a Storage Yard tile, and Storage Yard deliverymen can only carry one sculpture.

Unit: When a load of food, fleece, oil or wine is transferred to an Agora (and thence to housing), it changes from one load into 100 units. This is the number you see when you right-click on an Agora or a house. Armor and horses remain just one.

Acknowledgements and Caveats

The inspiration for this document, and some of its raw data, comes from Caesar Alan’s thread “Ok Folks – Let’s Crunch Numbers!” The data comes from experimentation in economic sandbox mode at the Olympian (default) difficulty setting. My observations are likely incomplete or wrong in some areas, please post corrections to a related thread in the Game Help forums on zeus.heavengames.com. Other difficulty settings might yield somewhat different numbers. Blessings from the gods (production increases, walker speedup etc.) can also change these calculations.

AuthorReplies:
Moquel
Pleb
posted 04-03-01 12:26 ET (US)     1 / 20       
Wow, Impressive

However, it lacks some cruical data regarding not how much something produces but rather exactly what this means for your population...
I mean of course how much of a certain good a house/citizen uses per year/month...

I have these Data and am in the process of typing it out ATM, but I will make a thread about it when I'm done
I've been working on that for QUITE some time... I just haven't felt compelled to do so due to the low response I got from the first thread regarding food production and consumption (found here

But overall, very impressive!

/me salutes JonN


I have discovered a truly marvellous signature, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
MarvL
Pleb
posted 04-04-01 10:26 ET (US)     2 / 20       
I posted a revised message down thread a couple of messages. I got past that horrible white space, and I added a handy chart that summarizes the requirements for each housing level.

Extend your grasp of the Empire at Serpentineum

[This message has been edited by MarvL (edited 04-07-2001 @ 10:21 AM).]

Moquel
Pleb
posted 04-04-01 13:19 ET (US)     3 / 20       
Hey MarL... talk about stealing my thunder...

I am printing out much of that at the moment... I do however aim to make it more easily understood.

One thing I wonder is that you have actually typed out how much copper a Copper that can be produced per year. However this data varies by distance and availability quite drastically.


I have discovered a truly marvellous signature, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
MarvL
Pleb
posted 04-04-01 23:30 ET (US)     4 / 20       
I usually build a Foundry and a Mint almost anywhere, and then follow the miners to see where the Copper and Silver is located, and how they get to the Copper and Silver. I then make sure I can get a road into the area (I've always been able to build a road anywhere the miners can get to, but it's tough to find it sometimes, if you don't follow the miners). Practically right on top of the Copper Mine is an excellent place to build your Foundries, Armories, Sculpture Studios, an Accepting Storehouse (one or more) for Bronze, Armor, and Sculptures, and a couple of your Trading Posts.

There's not really any excuse for putting your metal industries anywhere else, so they WON'T be distant and it's pretty easy to achieve the numbers I listed.


Extend your grasp of the Empire at Serpentineum
JonN
Pleb
posted 04-05-01 23:30 ET (US)     5 / 20       
Before I start any mission, I look through the various tabs to see what I am allowed to build. After that, I look over the whole map and choose a general strategy for what to build where. I suppose test buildings will also work if you don't mind the expense, and if you have bridged any water partitions.

I have posted the original Word document of Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Industries in Zeus to http://www.jonnewman.com/zeus.doc . I will update this over time to include the excellent information from Moquel and MarvL. Hopefully a more final version of zeus.doc can be included in the permanent help for zeus.heavengames.com.

JonN
Pleb
posted 04-06-01 01:00 ET (US)     6 / 20       
I have posted version 0.1 of this document on http://jonnewman.com/zeus.doc .

Version 0.14/05/2001Jon Newman, adding excellent feedback from Moquel and MarvL. New sections: Measuring Industrial Efficiency, Consumption. Updated sections: Farms, Acknowledgements and Caveats

MarvL
Pleb
posted 04-07-01 10:19 ET (US)     7 / 20       

Meager Resources

MarvL - April 7, 2001

In our article on Meager Resources, we've focused on squeezing the most out of the structures that you have to use anyway, for other purposes, with a view towards spending as few drachmas as possible to achieve the necessary level of Housing Development. In particular, we've squeezed the maximum benefit out of the Palace and the Agoras, rather than buying extra Appeal Elements, and we ran some of the numbers on the Benefit per Drachma of Parks, Avenues, Boulevards, Flower Gardens, Gazebos, and Monuments.

Common Housing Requirements

Three elements control the development level of common housing: Commodities, Culture, and Appeal. The Number of Occupants and Tax Rate both climb as the development level increases. We've included Elite Housing, just to make the table more useful.

Housing Level Commodity Culture Appeal Occupants, Tax Rate
Hut Self Supporting

00

low-0 08, 1 Drachma/p
Shack Food

Same

-2-10 16
Hovel Water

15

Same 24
Homestead Fleece

Same

5-20 32, 2 Drachma/p
Tenement Same

35

15-30 40
Apartment Oil

Same

25-40 48
Townhouse Same

45

35-high 60
Devolved none

00

low-55 01 Watchman, 0 D/p
Residence 200 food
100 fleece and oil

50

50-65 06 Noblemen, 12 D/p
Mansion 2 Armor

60

60-75 10 with 2 Hoplites
Manor Wine, 2 more Armor

70

70-85 16 with 4 Hoplites
Estate Horses

80

80-high 20 with 4 Horsemen

Commodity Requirements

Food requirements are based on population, but the requirements for Fleece and Olive Oil are based strictly on the number of houses. Most people overbuild their Combing Sheds and Growers Lodges. It's also worth remembering that only Manors and Estates can use Wine, so you don't need Grapevines and Wineries until you're well into an Adventure, and even then you won't need very many Grapevines unless you want to sell the Wine.

The penalties for overbuilding are far more severe than might be apparent, right at the first. It's not just that you're spending extra Drachmas, but rather than you're tying up extra personnel and slowing down your growth rates. Ultimately, you have industries that are sitting idle, rather than industries that are generating Trade Goods, and life just won't be as pleasant. Here's what you actually need to support your population.

Resource Primary Commodity/y Secondary Supports
Meadow 1 Carrot F 800 Carrots
April
none 256 Occupants
Meadow 1 Onion F 800 Onions
April
none 256 Occupants
Meadow 1 Wheat F 800 Wheat
July
0.44 Horse F
50x6x6=1800
256 Occupants
16 Colts
Fishing Spots 1 Fishery 1200 Fish none 384 Occupants
Urchin Spots 1 Urchin Q 1200 Urchins none 384 Occupants
Per Herd 1 Hunters L 1400 Pork none 448 Occupants
8 Goats 1 Diary 800 Cheese none 256 Occupants
8 Sheep 1 Carding S 8 Fleece none 33.3 Houses
18 Olive Trees 1 Growers L 18 Olives
Jan-Feb
03 Olive Press
18 Olive Oil
75 Houses
12 Grapevines 0 (exists) 12 Grapes
Oct-Nov
02 Wineries
12 Wine
50 Manors
3 Copper Mines
75 Copper
1 Foundry
3 Miners
1600 Copper
16 Bronze
16 Armor
04 Sculpture
9 New Hoplites
2.25 Armories
0.66 S Studios
2 Silver Mines 1 Mint
2 Miners
400 Silver 200 Drachma
Quarry 1 Masonry 1.5 Blocks 12 Marble
Trees
75 Raw Wood
1 Timber M
3 Loggers
1200 R Wood 12 Wood

An analysis of these elements, including the benefits of Aphrodite's Haven and a lot of pretty pictures, is available at Meager Resources.


Extend your grasp of the Empire at Serpentineum

[This message has been edited by MarvL (edited 04-08-2001 @ 09:32 AM).]

Moquel
Pleb
posted 04-07-01 10:30 ET (US)     8 / 20       
JonN... I don't mean to be annoying or uncooperative, but before posting anything that someone else has written, you need their expressed permission.
I for one demand credit for what I personally has written.

I have not been able to look at the document you linked to, since appearantly it does not exist.

I will probably grant you the permission to use whatever of my material you want, but I urge you to ask before you do such a thing, since otherwise you are violating International Copyright Laws.


I have discovered a truly marvellous signature, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
MarvL
Pleb
posted 04-07-01 10:38 ET (US)     9 / 20       
Geez, I thought you were shooting at me, there for a second. I agree with you except that the inclusion of approprite bits, with proper attribution, is considered to be fair usage.

JonN's hyperlink worked yesterday, but the site seems to be down at the moment. I printed out a copy, and he added an acknowledgement section where you get an entire paragraph. You might want to sit tight, rather than shooting at him, until you get a chance to review his revised document. He seems to understand the conventions, and praises you unstintingly. It's useful to have that sort of references.

It's nice to get the actual credit for the actual work, but the broader purpose of the convention is to assist those folks who are looking for more of the same.

Where 'da hell's your website, anyway, Moquel??


Extend your grasp of the Empire at Serpentineum

[This message has been edited by MarvL (edited 04-07-2001 @ 11:46 AM).]

Moquel
Pleb
posted 04-07-01 10:57 ET (US)     10 / 20       
Don't worry MarvL, I shot plenty at you in the other thread

BTW, it might sound worse than I intended... I apologize for this...

Also, my name is Moquel, not Moguel... I've learned to get used to this but it is still annoying...
As for my website, once I was finished with it, about 2 people actually cared, so I put it down pretty fast... I saw no reason to have it up there when after 1 week I'd had 7 visitors, 2 of them being people that was not intrested in Zeus but just wanted to see how my page looked.

I live here... the forums are as close to a website as I can get at the moment

JonN
Pleb
posted 04-08-01 15:48 ET (US)     11 / 20       
Sorry, it was certainly my intention to give proper attribute, and I will try to ask for your advance permission moving forward. I updated the acknowledgements in version 0.1, but my sites are all down right now. I have asked the provider (IBD.NET) for information.
kluelos
Pleb
posted 08-14-02 18:37 ET (US)     12 / 20       
Even at this late date, I have one more magic number to add to this thread. I couldn't find the answer anywhere else, so went to the sandbox to find out for myself:

How far is "too distant"? When you add an agora vendor, and notice they arent' delivering the goods, you click on the agora to see that the fleece vendor says "Too distant". How far is that?

I worked it out with a long, measured road, moving a granary one tile closer at a time. (Granaries playing leapfrog amuse my simple mind.)

The answer surprised me. It's 37 tiles, measured from (but not including) the closest square on the agora to the closest road square abutting the destination.

This applies to food, fleece and oil vendors. I haven't worked up an elite block in the sandbox to test the others, but it's probably the same for all.

Now the very surprising thing about it is that just as random walkers have preferred exit and re-entry points for buildings, so do destinaton walkers such as agora vendors. The want to "get", to take delivery from, say, the northeast corner of the granary or storehouse, and that is where they will go, if they can get there by road at all.

The *closest* point of the granary/store must be within 37 squares of the agora, but it seems the "getting" point can be, by road, infintely far away. The walkers will still take that route, though the distance be quadruple or more.

I created a switchback route** to see it they'd still follow that, rather than the 10 tiles the direct route to the southern corner would have been.

I gave up, convinced, when I'd gotten to well over over 200 road tiles, and they were still taking the long route, back and forth, back and forth, like Sisyphus...


This has, of course, very strong implications for keeping your houses supplied.

In the course of working this out, it also became clear that this applies to those delivering to/from the granaries and warehouses -- not the maximum distance part, but the, um, loading dock point. If they can go there, they will, no matter the distance. I sort of knew that, but not explicitly stated that way.

Orientation matters, obviously. I haven't seen an exposition of preferred points for industries, though it seems to go clockwise facing north starting at the 1 o'clock square.

This vendor business finally explains to me why a seeming unrelated change to a road layout elsewhere will suddenly cause my housing block to decay for lack of fleece or food or whatever. The vendor's taking a new scenic route.

It also modifies every notion of "close to", in this thread. "My storehouse is really close to my grower's lodge..." It may be, but the lodge deliveryman might still be circling the whole city to get there.

That's implied elsewhere, of course, but it was news to me that it applied to agora vendors as well.

--------------------
** Points I forgot to mention:

1. Difficulty level doesn't affect this. I tested.

2. In my layout, the vendors were actually passing the granary/warehouse immediately to the southwest, going hundreds of tiles further to come to it from the northeast.
Layout something like this, where the apex of the triangle represents as many tiles as you want. In my case, over 250.

/\
/ \
/ \
/ \
/G \
/ --------\
A ^ vendors come here to buy


[This message has been edited by Kluelos (edited 08-15-2002 @ 00:02 AM).]

HermannTLombard
Pleb
posted 08-15-02 12:29 ET (US)     13 / 20       
Kluelos,

Well done, O Patient One!

(Now if the moderator could only *insert* a short message up front in this thread so that the monster message doesn't appear on each page...or I suppose a big Edit could move the bulk to a later message.)

-- HtL

kluelos
Pleb
posted 02-10-03 15:53 ET (US)     14 / 20       
I may have to reconsider the right formula for the "too far" distance...

I was working on a contest city, and replayed it several different times, using a painfully worked-out city layout that I re-used each time.

I had a second residential block squeezed into svailable space, with an agora on the north side. I had originally developed it placing the food vendor on the eastern edge of the agora, which happened to be the nearest edge to my granary. There was only one road out to the city, on the west side.

During a replay, though, I happened to place the food vendor on the west side of the agora, actually the closest side to the road, but got the "too distant" message. Deleting the vendor and replacing it on the east side made it ok, despite the lack of difference in number of road tiles from the agora to the granary.

You could even argue that the vendor had to walk further - the 4 remaining tiles of the agora - to get to the granary.

It appears there's an "as the crow flies" distance limit at work here, not a road tile limit.

[This message has been edited by Kluelos (edited 02-10-2003 @ 03:58 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 02-11-03 01:20 ET (US)     15 / 20       
Kluelos,

The closest I've come to playing Zeus is watching my daughter play, but perhaps some information from Caesar III and Pharaoh will suggest an answer.

As far as I can tell, a Caesar III market will only get from a granary or a warehouse if the distance from the north tile of the market to the north tile of the granary or warehouse is less than 40 tiles (measured horizontally, vertically, and/or diagonally). That means the maximum number of tiles between the buildings is either 37 or 36, depending on their relative orientations. The same is true for Pharaoh bazaars, granaries, and storage yards, except that the maximum number of tiles between a bazaar and a (large) granary is 35 in some orientations.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 02-11-2003 @ 01:21 AM).]

Andyblast
Pleb
posted 02-11-03 14:36 ET (US)     16 / 20       
Hi guys,

Don't wanna be a spoilsport here but have you ckecked:

1. Pecunia's Food & Industries Page

2. Pajeh Southwind's Absolutely terrific MS-Access Database for Zeus

Most of above discussion is already THERE .

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 02-12-03 14:39 ET (US)     17 / 20       
Andyblast,

I found nothing on Pecunia Maxima's Food & Industries page that discussed the maximum distance that agora vendors can be from their supplies, but I have been known to overlook things that are right in front of me. If there is such a discussion there, please tell me where.

I realize that I'm not familiar with what has been published about Zeus. However, no one corrected Kluelos's guess when it was made last August, so I doubted that anyone would respond with definite information when the question was reopened recently. Therefore, I thought it worthwhile to mention what was known about similar distances in Caesar III and Pharaoh. If the maximum distance for agora vendors is well known, then I apologize for wasting your time.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 02-12-2003 @ 02:44 PM).]

Pecunia
CBH Seraph
posted 02-12-03 15:43 ET (US)     18 / 20       
Brugle: I think (but only think) that Andyblast meant JonN's lengthy "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Industries in Zeus" opening post when he said "above discussion".. and indeed there are no Agora walker distances on my site as I've never been really interested in that to research it, you didn't overlook it

Angel Pecunia | HG Downloads programmer and techie
Caesar IV Heaven | Children of the Nile Heaven | Citadel of Poseidon (Zeus/Poseidon) | The Great Wall (Emperor)
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 02-12-03 16:01 ET (US)     19 / 20       
Thanks, Pecunia.

I realize that Andyblast may have ignored the dates in this thread and responded to the original post, but I didn't want to suggest that as long as there was another explanation.

P.S. If I ever get around to playing Zeus, I'll be sure to check out your excellent site.

Duane
Pleb
posted 02-12-03 16:03 ET (US)     20 / 20       
JonN thanks for starting an interesting discussion. I do believe, however, that the statement that once goods are delivered to a pier or trading post that they can never be retrieved is in error. You can retrieve goods fron a pier/trading post by first telling the pier/trading post to stop trading the goods and then set a storage yard to get the needed goods and you will see a deliveryman head to the pier/trading yard and collect the material.

Duane

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