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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Pharaoh: Game Help » Stable Sauty
Topic Subject:Stable Sauty
HG Alumnus
posted 09-11-19 17:20 ET (US)         
About 10 years ago, I looked at Nero Would's spoiler maps and saw that Iunet eventually stopped having events that required intervention (such as invasions). I built Immortal Iunet (the second time I built Iunet), but it had problems. Over 6 years later, I built a quite different Improved Immortal Iunet), which become stable and ran for thousands of years without intervention (and my guess is that it would have run much longer).

There is another family history city that also eventually stopped having events requiring intervention: Sauty. Now that I've completed the Middle Kingdom, it's time for Stable Sauty.

Sauty can farm pomegranates and flax on floodplain and meadow, dig clay, mine gems, quarry limestone and plain stone, and manufacture bricks, pottery, beer, linen, jewelry, chariots, warships, and transports. Gods are Osiris (with temple complex), Ra, and Seth. Requirements are Culture 70, Prosperity 75, 6500 people, 3 medium mudbrick pyramids, and burial provisions. Stable Sauty will be built with Cleopatra.

These personal rules will apply:
* Very Hard difficulty
* Culture 70 (the maximum without zoos)
* Prosperity 100
* All houses are residences or better
* No debt and no "rescue gift"
* Personal funds are not used
* No cheats
* Schools, libraries, mortuaries, and senet house are kept supplied with goods
* Teachers, librarians, embalmers, and senet players do not use long (forced) walks
* Palace, mansion, temple complex, and the best houses are together
* No festivals
* Regular traffic goes through the festival square
* All roads, including the rerouted Kingdom road, are connected
* Every entertainment venue has a show part of the time
* Adequate defense
* People are always registered for tax
* Bazaars and water supplies are upgraded
* People will give the best comments--a dancer will say "This city is fantastic!"
* Except for trade quotas and farm fertility and flood length, no "future history"
* Nothing that I build is deleted (except by an event), unless I screw up

City Health and Population

Culture 70 requires 80% physician coverage and 40% mortuary coverage. With all houses residences or better, I don't think city health could be as low as average. Since I want few ghosts (people who reach 100 years old and disappear from the population but still take space in houses, eat, and pay taxes) in a city of at least 6500 people with better than average city health, this requires (as described in reply #97 of Are there any truly eternal cities in Caesar 3?) a minimum of about 10653 people, which is at good city health.

To prevent city health from being very good, some houses will not have physician coverage.

Is Stable Sauty possible? I didn't know earlier (so I didn't post), but now I believe so. A preliminary design appears OK, although it has too much unemployment.

My reports will be short (for me), so feel free to ask questions. They will also be slow, for multiple reasons.

Warning: the replies have spoilers.
posted 09-12-19 04:59 ET (US)     1 / 18       
Sauty annoys me. It has the potential to be a lot of fun, the island with the floodplain would be a nice concept if the mission was trade-heavy or logistically challenging. But with the dunes in the south-east and making 3 pyramids, it's instead a "limited-space" map, which I always find a little dull, like Buhen, or Heh. In my opinion at least.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, Proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too
HG Alumnus
posted 09-13-19 12:20 ET (US)     2 / 18       

One pyramid is on the island. It is isolated from the rest of the city whenever the flood is pretty good.

The other pyramids are on the south bank as far west as possible (so people would live closer to the ferry). However, those pyramids are touching the lakes which have crocodiles. A crocodile can be walled off when the first course of the pyramid has been laid in place, but until then we'll have to hope the crocodile behaves. (If a crocodile killing someone causes pyramid construction to halt and is fixed by a delete/rebuild, that will violate the "no delete" rule.)

Future History

I checked fertility when designing farms, and determined the flood length.

As in the Immortal Iunets, I checked the eventual trade cities and quotas, and found that the quotas for several goods changed during the mission. Therefore, I again looked at Nero Would's spoiler map of Sauty, assuming that requests (other than extortion) were satisfied, and mostly avoided looking at other things. Several quota changes were apparently random choices among multiple goods. If I understand those events, the final possible quotas are:
Bubastis: sell 1500 meat 1500-4000 wood 1500-4000 papyrus; buy 2500 beer 1500-4000 jewelry
Men-nefer: sell 2500 chickpeas 2500 papyrus; buy 2500 bricks 1500 barley 1500 beer 2500 jewelry
Itjtawy: sell 4000 meat 4000 straw 4000 bricks 2500 papyrus; buy 2500 beer
Kerma: sell 1500-2500 ebony; buy 1500-2500 linen 1500-2500 jewelry
Menat Khufu: sell 1500 barley 2500 beer 25 plain stone; buy 2500 bricks 25 limestone

Unlike the Immortal Iunets, I did not test the average amount of trade with ships or the entry and exit points.

Docks and Ferry

2 close-together docks are roughly equidistant from the ends of the river, so the location of the river entry and exit points won't matter much. The docks are on the north bank just west of the floodplain.

The ferry crossing is in the east, far from the docks, since the road between them goes around the north bank floodplain.


There are three trade areas: near the docks (for ships), in the east of the north block (for Kerma caravans), and on the south bank (for Menat Khufu caravans).

Much of the beer and barley sold by Menat Khufu will be bought, so those caravans should always (or almost always) stay on the south bank. This makes selling bricks problematic, since they are bought by Menat Khufu caravans and Men-nefer ships in locations that are far apart.

Lots of food will be bought from all 3 water trade cities.

It wasn't hard to design for selling jewelry (the principal export) and limestone and linen, and for buying papyrus and straw and wood (during development).

Basic Housing

Elites live on the north bank, since food is imported there. 1 housing block eats chickpeas and pomegranates, and 2 blocks eat meat and pomegranates. Everyone has school and library and mortuary coverage, although 1 block does not have physician coverage. All houses have all 4 goods. The preliminary design has 8 stately manors, 6 elegant manors, and 41 fancy residences, but that is likely to change.

Common people live on the south bank. 3 housing blocks eat only pomegranates. Nobody has library or mortuary coverage, although everyone has physician coverage. The preliminary design has 65 common residences, but that is likely to change.

All housing blocks have 2 bazaars distributing goods, trying to avoid the problem that made my original Immortal Iunet fail. Most of those bazaars also distribute food.

One problem was houses getting services frequently enough, since (as in Improved Immortal Iunet) several service-providing buildings are not on the inner housing block road (to squeeze in more houses). The senet player was troublesome. Teachers and librarians were fairly easy to handle, and other walkers were fine.

Food Losses

Food can be lost by teleporting bazaar traders giving food to houses which shouldn't get it. As far as I can tell, this won't happen since none of the bazaars with chickpeas or meat will teleport to a place where they could give their food to houses that shouldn't get it.

Food can also be lost when a bazaar food buyer who is returning with food disappears when the goods buyer gets back to the bazaar (which normally causes the food carried to be delivered to the bazaar, but rarely not all is delivered). There should be enough extra meat and pomegranates to tolerate this loss. Chickpeas are not lost in this way because the chickpea-eating block has 3 bazaars, 2 distributing only goods and 1 distributing only food.


Crocodiles can attack people on regular land, but does anyone know if a crocodile on the floodplain will attack a laborer or a cart pusher leaving a farm? I'll assume it is rare and ignore it.

All floodplain farms grow pomegranates, and is the only industry on both banks. There are 3 floodplain groups: on the north bank with 2 work camps, in the west on the south bank with 2 work camps, and in the center on the south bank with 1 work camp. With Osiris's temple complex, the worst flood will be poor and will extend from the Nile only 2 tiles. Each floodplain group has 2 farms that are at least 2 tiles from the Nile; the rest of the farms touch the Nile. After a poor flood, all farms will get laborers from the nearby work camp, since the first laborer from each work camp will go to a nearby uncovered farm and the other farms will be uncovered by the time the second laborer from each work camp is ready. After a better flood, all floodplain farms have 99% fertility and should produce plenty even if a few laborers come from a distant work camp.

The other industries on the south bank are meadow pomegranate farms, limestone quarries, breweries, stonemason guild, and brickwork guild.

Most industries are on the north bank. Linen is consumed: meadow flax farms and weavers. Bricks are bought by ships: brickworks, clay pits, and potters. Jewelry is bought by ships: gem mines and jewelers. Wood is sold by ships: shipwright, chariot maker, and carpenter guild.

There are only 2 brickworks, which could deliver to the trade area on either bank without losing production (unless there is a long ferry delay). In the final city, one usually delivers to each trade area. Pyramid construction will take over 60 years (unless extra bricks are bought).

Linen is not distributed by storage yards, since each storage yard with linen is trying (and failing) to deliver plain stone.


Sauty is a "more peaceful" mission, so it should be OK with 4 charioteer forts, 2 archer forts, 5 warships, and 2 transports. However, buildings are near the edge of the city in many places, so we'll hope that the mission briefing "we are safe from immediate attack" continues forever (for land invasions).

The recruiter and academy are on the north bank near the chariot maker. The warships and transports are in the west on the north bank which has plenty of straight coast. 2 charioteer forts and 1 archer fort are on each bank.

Good Buildings

The mansion and palace and temple complex are by the stately manors. I couldn't fit the festival square on the north bank.

The festival square is on the south bank, beside a pavilion/bandstand complex. It should frequently have entertainers, often caravans, and occasionally pomegranate cart pushers and citizens.

Long (or Forced) Walks

The only walkers that take long (or forced) walks are fire marshals, bazaar traders, and citizens.

Many fire marshals take long walks, with 29 tiles the longest.

All bazaar traders take long walks, with 46 tiles the longest.

Most long-walking citizens follow the same paths as long-walking fire marshals or bazaar traders. A transport citizen takes a 6 tile long walk.
HG Alumnus
posted 09-15-19 17:39 ET (US)     3 / 18       
Revised Housing

I like the north bank's basic design, so won't make major changes. There is convenient room for only 2 more manors, in the block without physican coverage. Housing is 8 stately manors, 6 elegant manors, 2 common manors, 38 fancy residences, and 66 common residences.

The population (before ghosts) is 10664. 17.7% of people live in manors. The number of workers (before ghosts) should be about 2605.

Annual food consumption by houses is 18960 pomegranates, 4200 meat, and 2088 chickpeas.

Extra Jobs

All houses have apothecary and police coverage. Another granary (storing only pomegranates like all granaries) was added, which I doubt will be used in the final city.

2507 2515 employees are required, so unemployment (before ghosts) is about 3.9% 3.7%. That is low enough for people to give the best comments.

The design is done, except for shrine and statue selection. Building will not start for a while--among other reasons, I am having surgery.

[Edited employees and unemployed slightly--see reply #11.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 10-08-2019 @ 12:10 PM).]

posted 09-16-19 01:24 ET (US)     4 / 18       
Hi Brugle,

Good luck with your city and your surgery.

HG Alumnus
posted 09-23-19 13:55 ET (US)     5 / 18       
I often don't allow houses to be next to bare ground or bare road (no plaza). This will be done in Stable Sauty with one exception: bare ground next to a house is OK in a crocodile preserve.

Initial Construction

Starting funds are enough to begin the expensive gem/jewelry industry, which has the highest return per worker. Population growth will be somewhat slow, which should make building a little easier.

Labor will be micromanaged for a while.
HG Alumnus
posted 09-27-19 07:24 ET (US)     6 / 18       
Sauty begins (at Very Hard difficulty) with 0 people, 6750 Db, Cu 0, Pr 0, and Ki 40.

First Year (1541 BC)

The ferry crossing, 76 vacant lots (69 in Jan) in the NE and N blocks, all 6 gem mines, 7 jewelers, 1 architect post, 4 firehouses, 1 dock, 1 storage yard, 2 water supplies for the NE and N blocks, and 1 work camp on the N bank were built. The trade route to Men-nefer was opened.

Men-nefer bought 1300 jewelry, the first time in Jul.

The 1st year ended with 380 people (in crude huts), 410 Db, Cu 0, Pr 0, Ki 39, and very good health.
HG Alumnus
posted 09-29-19 10:12 ET (US)     7 / 18       
2nd Year (1540 BC)

Heh fell to enemies. Itjtawy raised its meat quota to 4000/year.

25 vacant lots in the N, NW, and S blocks, 10 floodplain pomegranate farms, 8th (last) jeweler, 2 clay pits, both brickworks, 2nd and 3rd architect posts, 5th and 6th firehouses, 2nd storage yard, a granary, 4 Osiris shrines, 2 Ra shrines, 2 Seth shrines, a bazaar in the N block, gardens, and plazas were built. The trade routes to Itjtawy and Bubastis were opened.

Itjtawy sold straw. Bubastis bought jewelry. Men-nefer bought bricks.

The 2nd year ended with 588 people (in sturdy huts), 702 Db, Cu 5, Pr 3, Ki 39, and excellent health.
HG Alumnus
posted 10-01-19 16:48 ET (US)     8 / 18       
3rd Year (1539 BC)

Itjtawy raised its straw quota to 2500/year.

Both limestone quarries, 4th and 5th architect posts, 7th through 9th firehouses, 3rd storage yard, shipwright, recruiter, academy, an archer fort on the N bank, 2 warship wharves, a Ra temple in the N block, 3rd water supply in the NW block, a physician in the NE block, 2nd bazaar in the NW block, 3rd and 4th bazaars in the NE block, and a large statue were built. The trade route to Menat Khufu was opened.

Menat Khufu bought limestone. Bubastis sold wood.

The 3rd year ended with 751 people (243 in meager shanties, 483 in sturdy huts, 25 in crude huts), 703 Db, Cu 5, Pr 11, Ki 39, and very good health.
HG Alumnus
posted 10-05-19 14:15 ET (US)     9 / 18       
4th Year (1538 BC)

Iken fell to enemies. Kerma requested 1600 pomegranates in 6 months which was dispatched in time.

15 vacant lots in the S and SW blocks, 11th through 20th floodplain pomegranate farms, a potter, 6th architect post, 10th firehouse, 2nd (last) archer fort on the S bank, 5th and 6th Osiris shrines, 3rd Seth shrine, 4th and 5th water supplies in the S and SW blocks, a pavilion in the N block, a dance school, 2nd work camp in the west part of the S bank, and small statues were built. The ferry crossing was staffed.

The 4th year ended with 997 people (351 in rough cottages, 621 in meager shanties, 25 in crude huts), 1029 Db, Cu 15, Pr 18, Ki 39, and almost perfect health.

[Changed "10" to "11th through 20th".]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 10-13-2019 @ 05:18 PM).]

HG Alumnus
posted 10-07-19 11:37 ET (US)     10 / 18       
5th Year (1537 BC)

Kerma again requested 1600 pomegranates in 6 months which was dispatched in time.

10 vacant lots in the N, NW, and SW blocks, N bank water lift, 2 meadow flax farms, 2 breweries, 2 weavers, 11th through 13th firehouses, 2nd granary, 5th and 6th bazaars in the S and SW blocks, and dynasty mansion (with salary set to 0) were built. The potter was turned OFF, to free its workers and accumulate clay.

Menat Khufu bought bricks and sold barley. Itjtawy bought beer.

The 5th year ended with 1193 people (432 in modest homesteads, 621 in meager shanties, 140 in sturdy huts), 3789 Db, Cu 15, Pr 21, Ki 40, and very good health.
HG Alumnus
posted 10-08-19 12:15 ET (US)     11 / 18       
Major Design Error

The elegant manors had coverage from just 2 gods! I squeezed in another temple, but had to either add another architect post or move an existing one. It would be nice to follow the "no delete of anything I build" rule, but I'm proud of needing only 12 architect posts, so I decided to move the existing architect post.

Since there are 8 additional employees, I edited reply #3.
posted 10-09-19 04:44 ET (US)     12 / 18       
Major Design Error
Major? Well I guess forgetting a 3rd god is but having to move one single, little, tiny architect post to fix it? Really? I'm obsessive about design too but so long as it doesn't affect the walker path, or it's done because you've made a mistake in the coverage, I feel little movements like that are completely acceptable in the layout, even under your strict rules. But they are personal rules for a reason.

A 1 tile deletion - excitement and unexpected twists everywhere :P

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, Proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too
HG Alumnus
posted 10-09-19 07:22 ET (US)     13 / 18       
Major? Well I guess forgetting a 3rd god is but having to move one single, little, tiny architect post to fix it?
It bothered me that I made a similar mistake when building On. After all, I know what houses need.

It wasn't so easy to figure out the fix. The new temple replaced a not-yet-built flax farm, and I didn't want to eliminate the farm. I even considered not adding the temple, having spacious manors instead of elegant manors, and adding another common residence. However, I consider elegant manors to be the most attractive manors.

Finally I realized that the eliminated flax farm (of 44% fertility) was the furthest from the water lift, and with slightly less irrigation ditch, another flax farm (of 42% fertility) could be built.
posted 10-10-19 04:31 ET (US)     14 / 18       
I knew there would be more to it than that. I thought, you'd never have just a spare 9 tiles free for an extra temple without inconveniencing more than that architect post.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, Proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too
HG Alumnus
posted 10-10-19 19:18 ET (US)     15 / 18       
6th Year (1536 BC)

Itjtawy raised its brick quota to 4000/year. A trade route to Kerma became available.

29 vacant lots in the NE, N, and NW blocks, 7th architect post, 14th and 15th firehouses, 3rd granary, 7th through 9th Osiris shrines, 4th and 5th Seth shrines, a mortuary in the N block, and 2nd through 4th physicians in the NW, S, and SW blocks were built. The potter was turned ON. An existing architect post was deleted and rebuilt 4 tiles away. (This is my third Pharaoh city in a row where I failed to follow the "no delete of anything I build" rule.)

Bubastis and Men-nefer bought beer. The trade route to Kerma was opened.

The 6th year ended with 1398 people (561 in spacious homesteads, 837 in meager shanties), 4527 Db, Cu 15, Pr 27, Ki 41, and good health.
HG Alumnus
posted 10-12-19 07:20 ET (US)     16 / 18       
7th Year (1535 BC)

16 vacant lots in the N, NW, S, and SW blocks, 3rd meadow flax farm, 3rd weaver, 4th and 5th storage yards, chariot maker, a charioteer fort on the N bank, Osiris's temple complex, 3rd Ra shrine, 2nd mortuary for the N block, and a medium statue were built.

Kerma bought jewelry and linen.

The 7th year ended with 1699 people (646 in spacious homesteads, 1053 in meager shanties), 4730 Db, Cu 15, Pr 26, Ki 42, and average health.
HG Alumnus
posted 10-13-19 17:25 ET (US)     17 / 18       
Minor edit to reply #9.

8th Year (1534 BC)

Itjtawy raised its straw quota to 4000/year. Rowarty demanded 1000 Db extortion in 6 months, which won't be paid. There was some unemployment, first time since the first year.

8 vacant lots in the N and SW blocks, 8th architect post, 3rd clay pit, 2nd potter, 4th granary, 2nd charioteer fort on the S bank, 4th Ra shrine, a Seth temple for the NW block, 3 police stations in the NE, N, and NW blocks, 2nd pavilion in the NE block, 3rd through 5th (last) work camps, and festival square were built. A pyramid was placed on the island.

The 8th year ended with 2091 people (663 in spacious homesteads, 780 in rough cottages, 648 in meager shanties), 4753 Db, Cu 15, Pr 28, Ki 43, and good health.
HG Alumnus
posted 10-17-19 16:32 ET (US)     18 / 18       
I made a careless mistake in the 7th year (which I didn't realize until playing the 9th year): started a house (with three vacant lots) where two did not get protection from the fire marshal circling inside the NW block. It did usually get less frequent protection from a marshal that was protecting the warship wharves and shipwright (unless that marshal made the "wrong" choice at two intersections), but in the 9th year it would evolve to a more-flammable cottage. I built another firehouse (that would eventually provide extra-good protection to a school and library) but without making it take a long (forced) walk, so it would sometimes go by that troubled cottage. Hopefully fires will be prevented until the house becomes 2x2, either by merging in the 10th year (after the fourth tile is settled) or later when the house evolves to a residence.

9th Year (1533 BC)

Ki fell 3 because we didn't pay Rowarty's extortion.

10 vacant lots in the NW block, 4th and 5th meadow flax farms, 4th weaver, 4th clay pit, 3rd potter, 16th through 18th firehouses, 6th through 8th storage yards, 5th granary, 3rd and 4th warship wharves, a transport wharf, 5th Ra shrine, a courthouse in the NE block, a school for the NE block, 3 tax collectors in the NE, N, and NW blocks, a conservatory, and city palace were built. The wage rate was raised to 38 (Kingdom+8). The tax rate was set to 18%.

Itjtawy sold meat. Bubastis sold meat and papyrus.

The 9th year ended with 2587 people (1734 in spacious homesteads, 538 in rough cottages, 315 in meager shanties), 4801 Db, Cu 15, Pr 37, Ki 41, and good health. For the first time, a house finished the year with vacancies (8).
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