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Pharaoh: Game Help
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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Pharaoh: Game Help » Getting Papyrus
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Topic Subject:Getting Papyrus
Henipatra
Pleb
posted 08-29-19 12:17 ET (US)         
I'm in Itjtawy and I'm trying to export Papyrus for income.

On the west side of the Nile, I have a Storage Yard (the green Storage Yard in the image below) set to Get Papyrus.

The "sweet spot" (where walkers enter and exit) should be at the first adjacent square where there is a non-Roadblocked road starting at the north corner and wrapping around clockwise.

Since the source of the Papyrus is on the other side of the Nile, I'm expecting the cart pusher to exit the green Storage Yard at the gray road square and head to the Ferry. But he shows up on the pink road square, remains visible for one tick, then disappears (repeat, repeat).

image hosting

If I cut back the road by the pink road square, he does the same thing at a purple road square instead.

This is the only Storage Yard that has a Get order for Papyrus. Some other Storage Yards Accept Papyrus but don't Get it. I've tried getting Papyrus from a Storage Yard near the other Ferry terminal, connected by road, and from a Storage Yard farther away, with no road connection. Everything is fully staffed with good access to workers and some unemployment. I am not stockpiling Papyrus although I do want to export it. My computer is turned on.

In an attempt to manage each side of the Nile separately, I've kept them disconnected -- with the exception of the green Storage Yard and its Ferry terminal being part of the east side group instead of the west.

I suspect the road between the green Storage Yard and the Ferry is being overlooked by the walker -- if I move the Storage Yard down and make the road longer, or if I add little elbows to it, it works.

If I set the blue Storage Yard to Get Papyrus instead, it works just fine.

It's also possible that Storage Yards, like Temple Complexes and Water Supplies, are an exception to the usual "sweet spot" rule.

What's going on?

Henipatra

(P.S. if you like the image above with its neat graphics and wide variety of glyphs available, please let the powers-that-be know you would like it to be available to all.)

[This message has been edited by Henipatra (edited 08-29-2019 @ 12:19 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 08-30-19 12:50 ET (US)     1 / 7       
Hi Henipatra,
I'm expecting the cart pusher to exit the green Storage Yard at the gray road square and head to the Ferry. But he shows up on the pink road square, remains visible for one tick, then disappears ... If I set the blue Storage Yard to Get Papyrus instead, it works just fine.
This is surprising. Since the blue storage yard will get papyrus, the green storage yard should also get papyrus (regardless of where the getting car pusher appears). I suggest you send a saved game to the address in my profile (mentioning Pharaoh in the email subject), and I'll take a look.
I suspect the road between the green Storage Yard and the Ferry is being overlooked by the walker
Storage yards are strange--some things prefer to use a road that touches the northern tile of the SY, and others (including when there isn't a road touching the north tile) consider the storage yard as a whole (and would choose to use a road on the network with the greater number of road (and similar) tiles. But as far as I can tell, that shouldn't matter.
It's also possible that Storage Yards, like Temple Complexes and Water Supplies, are an exception to the usual "sweet spot" rule.
Storage yards (like temple complexes) do not obey that "sweet spot" rule, but (as far as I know) water supplies do.
evil_live_vile
Pleb
posted 09-02-19 04:55 ET (US)     2 / 7       
On the rare off-chance, try setting that storage yard to something obscure like getting something that your city doesn't use/import. Then run a test for a couple of months and check all other SYs to see if they have had their orders changed to the same obscure order - there's an uncommon bug usually seen on Cleo missions but can occur on other original maps when playing on Cleo where the SY sits on a specific bugged tile that links it to, and causes strange behaviour in, other SYs that also sit on bugged tiles.

It sounds like that specific grey square is the problem. Are you sure it's open like that image shows?
My computer is turned on.
I assume you've rotated the map . It's as though the spawn on the grey square is isolated from the rest of the city. What happens when you put a road linking the grey and pink roads?
P.S.
Not for me sorry, I'm set in my ways, refined my plans and tools so much, it's perfect for me but useless to anyone else. But feel free anyway to put it up. If one person finds it useful, that's worth it.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, Proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too
Henipatra
Pleb
posted 09-16-19 01:32 ET (US)     3 / 7       
Still haven't solved this problem.

The basic challenge here is to isolate one side of the Nile from the other -- so destination walkers, other than cart pushers from getting Storage Yards -- won't cross from one side to the other. How have others accomplished this?

Henipatra
evil_live_vile
Pleb
posted 09-16-19 05:12 ET (US)     4 / 7       
How have others accomplished this?
I have a Separated Baki in the downloads where the 2 sides of the Nile are completely disconnected other than through trade. That is simple enough to just leave the ferries unstaffed.

Other than that, if the reed gatherers are on the east bank only, and keep the ferry roads disconnected from the rest of the road network, your only traffic should be immigrants/emigrants and getting cart pushers (maybe military. I forget, do spawned military take ferries on their 1st trip to the fort?).
Still haven't solved this problem.
I can't really say sorry. Based on that image, it doesn't look like anything is wrong. The solution would just be playing around with the road network and changing things tile by tile and seeing what happens and then once you fix it, reverse engineering what you did until you find the cause of the problem.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, Proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 09-16-19 06:10 ET (US)     5 / 7       
How have others accomplished this?
I solved it, in On, like you are trying to do.

You could send a saved game as mentioned in reply #1. If I get it in the next few hours, I'll take a look today. Otherwise, I probably won't look at it for a few days.
Henipatra
Pleb
posted 09-17-19 04:45 ET (US)     6 / 7       
. . T H E . G E T T I N G . P A P Y R U S . P R O B L E M


The goal is to Get Papyrus from one Storage Yard to another. The yard near the Papyrus Makers is far away from the Kingdom Road, and I want to Get it into a yard (the "green" Storage Yard, see OP) more convienient for the caravans from Dahkla Oasis. I hope they will buy more if they don't have to go all the way across the city. But sometimes the cart pushers from the green Storage Yard won't fetch any Papyrus at all.

Factors I'm looking at include: distance of the green Storage Yard from the Ferry Terminal, additional roads around the yard, and location of the Papyrus to be fetched. Of particular importance is whether or not there is a "connected road" between the two Storage Yards. A connected road is one where you don't have to leave the road to get from one place to another. Roadblocks and ferries don't form disconnections; only a gap where the walker must cross open terrain do.

In an attempt to separately manage each side of the Nile, there is no connection between the east side of the Nile and the west -- with the exception of the Ferry Terminal and green Storage Yard on the west side; they are logically part of the east domain. Everything else on the west side is disconnected from the east.

The usual "sweet spot" rule is that all walkers enter and exit a building from a single location; the northeast side of the north square if that's possible (if there's a non-Roadblocked road there). If not, other spots are considered in a clockwise direction. The first eligible point is the sweet spot; all others are ignored. I put extra roads around the green Storage Yard in the hope they would be disregarded in favor of the sweet spot at the gray Road square. It seemed that Storage Yards have their own sweet spot rules.

. . . . . . . . . . T H E . M A Y . T E S T S

In a series of tests I call the May tests, the green storage yard was able to Get Papyrus if the path from one yard to the other was disconnected OR I removed the extra roads around the green Storage Yard. But if the path was connected AND there were extra roads around it, the cart pusher would show up and disappear one tick later, repeatedly.

In some cases, the cart pusher would show up on the pink road square then disappear. It's as if he decided that since there WAS a connected path, he would appear, then attempt to follow that connected path, but since it wasn't REALLY connected, he would give up. But if he thought there WASN'T a connected path, he would just start moving along roads and across open terrain and eventually get there. If a set the blue Storage Yard to Get Papyrus, no problem, because that was unequivocally disconnected.

. . . . . . T H E . S E P T E M B E R . T E S T S

More recently I started the September tests. In it, I moved the green Storage Yard one square more away from the Ferry Terminal (southwest) and eliminated all the extra roads. When I set the green Storage Yard to Get Papyrus, all worked as it should.

Then I put back a purple road square. (All of these September tests start with the configuration described in the previous paragraph, so only one thing at a time is changed.) Now the cart pushers showed up there, but considered their trip to be along a disconnected path, so they simply walked across open terrain to get to the Ferry Terminal.

Next I shifted the Papyrus I was getting from the Storage Yard it was in to another nearby Storage Yard; then I fetched it into the green Storage Yard as described above. Again no problems.

Also I tried moving the green Storage Yard back to where it was in the May tests, one square closer to the Ferry Terminal, and all worked as it should.

After that I moved the road from the Ferry Terminal to the green Storage Yard by one square northwest (moving just the road, not the buildings). Same result -- the Papyrus was successfully fetched.

Then I put back the pink and purple Road squares back. Now the cart pushers again appeared on the pink square (instead of the gray as I was expecting), walked across open land to the Ferry Terminal, and successfully obtained the Papyrus. Which is all fine and well, but I really wanted the green Storage Yard to be part of the east side road network, not the west. Specifically, when I continued this test by setting the green Storage Yard to Empty Papyrus (desigating a different Storage Yard to recieve it), the cart pusher just showed up on the pink square and refused to move (not even disappearing and reappearing like in the other tests). I want that capability so I can shift the west side Grain harvest across the Nile using Empty.

I thought maybe the problem is the pink Road square is in teleporting distance of the gray one. I cut that Road -- on the southeast side of the green Storage Yard -- back one square, and the same problem occured. Then I cut it back two squares (one more than before) and the problem was solved. So I conclude the "sweet spot" rule is working as described, at least for this particular situation; and the problem is when some other road is close to that sweet spot, the cart pusher can teleport to it.

Finally I tried moving the green Storage Yard back closer to the Ferry Terminal AND restoring the pink and purple roads, but cutting the pink road back. That didn't work. So it seems to be a combination of getting out of teleportation range AND how far a cart pusher would have to walk across open terrain.

. . . . . . . . C O N C L U S I O N

The reason this problem happened in the first place is because there were two "wrong" roads touching the Storage Yard, which I hoped would be ignored. (Normally, players don't design their cities this way.) What worked in this situation is the nearest "wrong" road being at least three squares away (horizontally, vertically, or diagonally) and the Storage Yard being at least four squares away from the Ferry Terminal. I'm not able to generalize these conclusions to other building and road layouts at this time.

If anyone has additional information on sweet spots, I would appreciate your sharing it.

Henipatra

[This message has been edited by Henipatra (edited 09-17-2019 @ 04:50 AM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 09-18-19 15:31 ET (US)     7 / 7       
Sorry, I guess I should have spent more time discussing your original post.
It seemed that Storage Yards have their own sweet spot rules.
Yes. Also, the rule you gave does not apply to buildings touching unconnected roads.

I recommend never letting a storage yard touch unconnected roads.
I want that capability so I can shift the west side Grain harvest across the Nile using Empty.
You could do that by eliminating all of the roads touching the green warehouse except for the gray tile. The green storage yard could get wheat from other (unconnected) west side storage yards and later empty them into east side granaries.

But that seems inefficient. You could use VSYs on the east side to obtain grain from (uneconnected) west side storage yards and deliver them to east side granaries..
I thought maybe the problem is the pink Road square is in teleporting distance of the gray one.
I doubt that teleportation is involved, but I've been wrong before.
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