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Pharaoh: Game Help
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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Pharaoh: Game Help » Trying Very Hard again, can't get immigrants
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Topic Subject:Trying Very Hard again, can't get immigrants
Afterburner
Pleb
posted 06-16-18 23:43 ET (US)         
I'm a long-time player who has spent over a decade playing on Hard difficulty. But Very Hard continues to be a challenge.

My current city has room for 320+ immigrants, except that nobody is immigrating and it's been that way for a couple of in-game years. The problem, it seems, is that my taxes are too high.

"So lower your taxes!" you (quite reasonably) say.

I don't wanna.

At least, that's not the problem I'm trying to solve.

I want to understand why my tax rate is causing this problem. Lowering my tax rate may solve my immediate crisis, but it will not increase my understanding of how to avoid it in the future, nor how to better manage it in the future.

I also want to understand how I can manage the mood of my citizens to get them to accept this tax rate. I have held two lavish festivals so far, but it has not altered the mood of my citizens. What are my other options for managing their mood?

Is lowering taxes the ONLY way to improve their sentiment?

Are they upset because I started taxing them too early, when their houses were still at the meager shanty stage? If I wait until the houses are more developed, are my citizens more likely to accept the tax rate?

If I lower the rate enough to get immigrants again, will they just start leaving later on if I raise the rate back to its current level?

If I overpay my citizens vs. the kingdom wage rate, will that improve their sentiment and make them more likely to stay?

[This message has been edited by Afterburner (edited 06-17-2018 @ 00:06 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Afterburner
Pleb
posted 06-17-18 06:39 ET (US)     1 / 12       
I tested the waters by raising my wages from 30 to 32. That didn't have any effect, so I raised them to 35. That broke the logjam and started the immigration back up. As soon as the first few immigrants showed up on the screen, I set the wages back down to 32. Now I'm getting "People love you!" messages, so I'm guessing I just needed to get the ball rolling.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-17-18 08:45 ET (US)     2 / 12       
Hi Afterburner,

This post is similar to one you wrote 14 years ago: Hair-trigger high tax complaints. Of course, we know more about city sentiment now than we did back then.

There are a number of things that affect city sentiment (when the population is at least 300): tax rate, fraction of people taxed, wage rate, unemployment, housing levels, and others. If people complain about one thing (such as taxes), you could improve city sentiment by making that thing better (lowering the tax rate), but you could also improve it by improving something else (unless everything else is perfect). I see you raised the wage rate and that did the trick.

The best research on city sentiment was done by Trium for C3: Sentiment (mood) - some numbers. I expect that Pharaoh sentiment is calculated similarly. There may be other differences, but I know of only 3: Pharaoh adjusts sentiment depending on the fraction of people taxed, Pharaoh sentiment depends on difficulty level for populations greater than 299, and Pharaoh sentiment at Very Hard difficulty with a population below 300 is the same as at Hard difficulty.
Afterburner
Pleb
posted 06-17-18 09:18 ET (US)     3 / 12       
This post is similar to one you wrote 14 years ago
I've slept since then.

Though it is gratifying to know that I'm still complaining about the same things a decade and a half later.
Afterburner
Pleb
posted 06-17-18 09:26 ET (US)     4 / 12       
There are a number of things that affect city sentiment (when the population is at least 300): tax rate, fraction of people taxed, wage rate, unemployment, housing levels, and others. If people complain about one thing (such as taxes), you could improve city sentiment by making that thing better (lowering the tax rate), but you could also improve it by improving something else (unless everything else is perfect). I see you raised the wage rate and that did the trick.

The best research on city sentiment was done by Trium for C3: Sentiment (mood) - some numbers. I expect that Pharaoh sentiment is calculated similarly. There may be other differences, but I know of only 3: Pharaoh adjusts sentiment depending on the fraction of people taxed, Pharaoh sentiment depends on difficulty level for populations greater than 299, and Pharaoh sentiment at Very Hard difficulty with a population below 300 is the same as at Hard difficulty.
So it looks like my best strategy is to hold off on collecting taxes until the city is reasonably developed.

I know better than to tax some of my city but not others, so my taxes are either all or nothing. And it does look like raising wages somewhat will offset the hit from taxation. Good to know.

Thanks for the info!
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-17-18 10:15 ET (US)     5 / 12       
it looks like my best strategy is to hold off on collecting taxes until the city is reasonably developed
I often try to set up all expensive export industries before starting to tax. However, if gold is mined (so the palace is already built) it doesn't cost much to tax. You may not collect much tax from crummy houses, but in some missions every deben counts.
I know better than to tax some of my city but not others, so my taxes are either all or nothing
The worst effect on city sentiment comes from taxing between 40% and 50% of the people, but often the same effect comes from other fractions (including, sometimes, 90% to 100%). The effect of taxing 80% to 90% is sometimes better (and never worse) than from 90% to 100%. For Very Hard difficulty, the details are in Tax_Sentiment_Model_Impossible.txt.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-17-2018 @ 10:16 AM).]

Afterburner
Pleb
posted 06-17-18 18:45 ET (US)     6 / 12       
I am vaguely surprised to discover that entertainment coverage doesn't affect city sentiment at all.
GovernorSimulus
Pleb
posted 06-19-18 21:20 ET (US)     7 / 12       
The worst effect on city sentiment comes from taxing between 40% and 50% of the people, but often the same effect comes from other fractions (including, sometimes, 90% to 100%). The effect of taxing 80% to 90% is sometimes better (and never worse) than from 90% to 100%. For Very Hard difficulty, the details are in Tax_Sentiment_Model_Impossible.txt.
Is this true only in VH?
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-20-18 09:08 ET (US)     8 / 12       
The worst effect on city sentiment comes from taxing between 40% and 50% of the people, but often the same effect comes from other fractions (including, sometimes, 90% to 100%). The effect of taxing 80% to 90% is sometimes better (and never worse) than from 90% to 100%. For Very Hard difficulty, the details are in Tax_Sentiment_Model_Impossible.txt.
Is this true only in VH?
I think it is true for all difficulties. Check the appropriate Tax_Sentiment_Model_????.txt file to be sure.
Henipatra
Pleb
posted 06-24-18 09:16 ET (US)     9 / 12       
I only collect taxes in neighborhoods that have "white housing" (apartments and up) and never had a problem with people complaining about unfair taxes. (Then again, I've never played at VH.)

The main thing I've found that affects migration is job availability -- if people can't get work, they're not happy.

But let's say there's lots of unemployment -- so you create new jobs (or whatever) and put everybody to work. While solving unemployment can happen fast, the city sentiment lags behind; in other words it can be half a year before people actually feel happy again.

So in the meantime people are back to work but they aren't reporting happiness. Since they can no longer complain about the lack of jobs, they complain about the only other thing they can think of, that old standby, high taxes.

In other words, when they complain about high taxes, they're lying. (If taxes were really the problem, they'd move out.)

Henipatra

[This message has been edited by Henipatra (edited 06-24-2018 @ 09:17 AM).]

evil_live_vile
Pleb
posted 06-25-18 04:31 ET (US)     10 / 12       
"white housing" (apartments and up)
Haha. I don't want to be "that guy" in-case your offended or hold particular political views, but come on, there are so many jokes there.
While solving unemployment can happen fast, the city sentiment lags behind; in other words it can be half a year before people actually feel happy again.
Sentiment changes happen twice a month. I believe it's split between effects, some take place in the middle of the month, others take effect at the end of the month. In some cities you can fluctuate between love and worship each month because a drop in sentiment takes place at a different time to an increase in sentiment. Other times, you can have sentiment rapidly increase when you fix a few "problems" at once like reducing unemployment, setting wages to +8 and lowering your tax rate all at the same time.
In other words, when they complain about high taxes, they're lying. (If taxes were really the problem, they'd move out.)
Not lying, just confused. They don't really know what the problem is so they blame something that might not be the easiest, or most efficient thing to fix, like wages or tax rate.

Or what if you had all Fancy Residences and higher, they'd all complain as much as they can but never move out. Taxes might be high, wages might be non-existent but in order to stay at FR level and higher, people will put up with anything.

Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, Proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 06-25-18 06:31 ET (US)     11 / 12       
what if you had all Fancy Residences and higher, they'd all complain as much as they can but never move out
All common residences and higher is enough to prevent emigration.
Henipatra
Pleb
posted 09-07-18 11:12 ET (US)     12 / 12       
Henipatra said: "white housing" (apartments and up)
evil_live_vile said: Haha. I don't want to be "that guy" in-case your offended or hold particular political views, but come on, there are so many jokes there.
I meant the HOUSES are white, I wasn't referring to the people who live there. (Substitute "whitewashed" or "white-painted" housing if you're offended.)
Henipatra said: While solving unemployment can happen fast, the city sentiment lags behind; in other words it can be half a year before people actually feel happy again.
evil_live_vile said: Sentiment changes happen twice a month. I believe it's split between effects, some take place in the middle of the month, others take effect at the end of the month. ...
Nevertheless, I've noticed that city sentiment after unemployment problems DOES take about half a year to improve again, and that in the interim, people do complain about high taxes. I've never seen complaints about high taxes otherwise (although if I suddenly and substantially increased the tax rate, I'm sure I would).

Henipatra

[This message has been edited by Henipatra (edited 09-07-2018 @ 11:18 AM).]

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