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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Pharaoh: Game Help » getting storage yard to getting storage yard ...
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Topic Subject:getting storage yard to getting storage yard ...
xtof
Pleb
posted 10-08-04 16:27 ET (US)         
Hi everyone,

I have the next question (I could try to find it out myself but I prefer to get the help of experienced players.) that I will ask by giving an example (it is on the map Rostja by the way). The purpose is to get goods as efficient as possible from point A to point C by going through point B (so exactly in that order A -> B -> C):

Point A is accepting storage yard near the industry
Point B is getting storage yard between Point A and Point C
Point C is getting storage yard near the docks to trade the goods.

At point A I have gemstone mines and jeweller industry and an accepting storage yard for gemstones (1/2 of the storage yard accepts gemstones the other accepts luxury goods, the finish product).

At point B (between point A and C as the distance between A and C is to big in order for the storage yard at point C to get the goods fast enough) there is a getting storage yard for gemstone (for of the storage yard)

At point C there are two storage yards to get of germstones.

My question is:
1) Will a getting storage yard (at point C) get from another getting storage yard (from point B) (or will both getting storage yards get from the accepting storage yard?)? If yes:
2) What is the change that storage yard B gets goods from storage yard C (so in reverse order as it is intended)?
3) Is there a chance that when storage yard C is full, that B will get goods from C?

Any help on this matter is very much appreciated, thanks in advance.
Greetz,
XtOf

AuthorReplies:
Jonathon Clark
Pleb
posted 10-08-04 17:06 ET (US)     1 / 21       
Hi Xtof,
The most simple answer is that your storage yards set get will get a certain amount of goods until they reach their limit set by you or they are full.

The system in Pharaoh is designed to help you evolve houses and so the goods in storage yards will in the end, always be distributed equally.Get and accept only hasten o slow the time it takes to get your items.I think others may be able to elaborate further as I only got the game in July but I am still quite experienced!

Yours Pharaohnicly,
Jonathon Clark,
Pharaoh

pagh
Pleb
posted 10-08-04 17:40 ET (US)     2 / 21       
A getting storage yard will not get goods from another getting storage yard, so you really can't transport goods through another storage yard without micromanaging it.

I had the very same problem in Rostja, and it's tough. I think the optimal solution, if you can manage it, is to place your gem mines near the rocks closest the dock; place your jewlers and gem storage between the mines and the docks, but not (much) further from the furthest gem mine than maximum distance for full production (42 tiles, or 28 with Ptah's temple complex/altar); and place your jewelry storage yards between the jewlers and the dock, again not further than 57 (39 with Ptah) tiles from the furthest jewler. This should maximize the amount of jewelry that you can move through the dock area storage yards without adding extra mines, jewlers or storage yards.

The other option is to live with less than maximal efficiency somewhere in the supply chain, by adding more mines, jewelers or storage yards. In general, I tend to put the burden of moving export goods on the storage yards near the dock, making sure each yard is getting something for export, and using storage yards outside the immediate dock area to get/deliver imported goods if necessary.

Jonathon Clark
Pleb
posted 10-08-04 17:47 ET (US)     3 / 21       
Hi again!
I don't mean to argue,but Pagh is wrong.
I haven't done ristja yet as I prefer to just build but common sense tells me that get means to go out and take whereas accept means to wait and take what comes.This applies to pharaoh aswell.Still a very good suggestion though from Pagh there!

Yours pharaohnicly,
Jonathon Clark,
Pharaoh.

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-09-04 00:07 ET (US)     4 / 21       
Jonathon Clark,
pagh is right (as usual). If you aren't sure of an answer then please say that you are guessing. Don't say that someone is wrong unless you are sure of it.

xtof,
When distances are large then multiple "getting" storage yards may be needed to move the desired volume of goods. My Rostja (in the Downloads) uses 1 storage yard near the dock to get jewelry plus 2 storage yards near the dock (1 of them filled with game meat to increase the "getting" capacity, but that may not be necessary) to get gems.

Jonathon Clark
Pleb
posted 10-09-04 03:59 ET (US)     5 / 21       
Brugle,
I am quite sure Pagh is wrong as "get" will make the storage yard delivery man go out and get the goods from somewhere other than it's manufacturing facility.If it is set to "accept" it will wait for the goods to be delivered to it.If you click on a SY set to "get" you will see underneath the labour info about it an icon of an item that is being made and it will say "Our delivery man is out getting goods". If you tell it to no-longer accept a good it has then it will say"Our delivery man is taking goods elsewhwere" the same applies for "Empty" order.If all storage yards in you city are set to get then they will try to even out the amount of goods they have.It works like "stockpile" and probably is in fact a quicker way to do it without going to the OOC.When you set a SY to "get" It will take what it wants E.G:Copper doesn't go to weaponsmith,gems don't go to a jeweler and any final products are distributed evenly between any storage yard with "get" on it."Accept" simply makes it take anything uneeded.To minimise overproduction here is a tip:1 copper min supports 2 weaponsimths,1 gem min supports 2 jeweler etc...That really helps me to even out my production to keep an amount in storage while everything still runs smoothly.

Yours pharaohnicly,
Jonathon Clark,
Pharaoh.

xtof
Pleb
posted 10-09-04 04:57 ET (US)     6 / 21       
Hi again,

Thanks for the help!

I think pagh gave me the correct answer (as it has been seconded by Brugle, who in my opinion must know what he is talking about):

Quoted from pagh:

A getting storage yard will not get goods from another getting storage yard, so you really can't transport goods through another storage yard without micromanaging it.

So my/the solution to this problem (in my case on the map Rostja) is:

Quoted from pagh:

A getting storage yard will not get goods from another getting storage yard, so you really can't transport goods through another storage yard without micromanaging it.
I had the very same problem in Rostja, and it's tough. I think the optimal solution, if you can manage it, is to place your gem mines near the rocks closest the dock ...

Quoted from Brugle:

When distances are large then multiple "getting" storage yards may be needed to move the desired volume of goods . My Rostja (in the Downloads) uses 1 storage yard near the dock to get jewelry plus 2 storage yards near the dock (1 of them filled with game meat to increase the "getting" capacity, but that may not be necessary) to get gems.

As pagh said I have put on Rostja my gemstone industry as close to the dock as possible. And as Brugle said I have put three getting storage yards near my dock, and the selling of gemstones and luxury goods works fluently.
So before you guys gave me the answer this was already my setup in Rostja. But I wasn't sure about if micromanaging (point A -> B -> C) would work, seems not.

So the advice and help was very appreciated, so thanks again.
Greetz,
XtOf

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-09-04 13:47 ET (US)     7 / 21       
xtof,
By "micromanaging", I think pagh meant careful, frequent changes of storage yard orders. For example, set the SY at B to "get" (from A), later set the SY at B to "accept" and the SY at C to "get" (from B), and repeat. Micromanagement like that may be useful in a contest where a tiny improvement might yield a win, but is tedious in regular play if done for long.


Jonathon Clark,

This is getting tiring. When someone points out a mistake you made, please try to learn from it rather than insisting that you must be right. It would be even better if you checked your statements (in the game) before posting them. For example, all of these errors could easily have been avoided:

Quote:

If all storage yards in you city are set to get then they will try to even out the amount of goods they have.

Nonsense. There is nothing that will automatically "even out the amount of goods they have", except possibly for caravans who are selling imported goods. Food and goods can be reliably distributed, but sometimes it isn't easy.

Quote:

It works like "stockpile"

Not even close.

Quote:

When you set a SY to "get" It will take what it wants E.G:Copper doesn't go to weaponsmith,gems don't go to a jeweler and ...

This is what stockpiling does (as well as preventing bazaar buyers from buying and storage yards (and granaries) from getting).

These mistakes are not so easy to check, but are still errors:

Quote:

1 copper min supports 2 weaponsimths

At full efficiency, 1 copper mine can support 1.7 weaponsmiths (about 2.429 weaponsmiths if Ptah's temple complex exists).

Quote:

1 gem min supports 2 jeweler

At full efficiency, 1 gem mine can support 1.36 jewelers (about 1.353 jewelers if Ptah's temple complex exists).

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 10-09-2004 @ 03:14 PM).]

GodOfRandomDeath
Pleb
posted 10-09-04 15:07 ET (US)     8 / 21       
Jonathon,

A storage yard will never retrieve goods from a manufacturing facility. A "getting" storage yard retrieves goods from a storage yard (or granary if it's food) that has the good that is not also set to get. Even if a good is set to get, a bazaar will still buy the good. A get order does have more priority than a delivery order, though, which means that if a storage yard is set to "Get Maximum", it will fill up the entire yard before it will deliver anything, which might temporarily stop delivery of the good if it is needed by another building. The only exception to this is when the good it set to stockpile, then no storage yard will retrieve the good even if it is set to "get" the good.

An industry will first try to deliver goods to any buildings that require that good to function. If none are found, it will then try to deliver the goods to the nearest storage yard that has room to receive them and full employment. Thus, if an accepting storage yard is placed near the industry, it will receive the goods first. A getting storage yard will then send out a cart pusher and retrieve the goods, and bring them back. This allows a getting storage yard to bring back goods to a housing area, allowing the bazaars to buy the good quickly, while keeping undesirable industry further away and close to the raw material resource.

Some good examples of this can be found in Brugle's Baki, especially the southern block of Spacious Residences.


xtof,

The solution presented is the most efficient I have seen if the city is fully connected. Mines in the south closest to the dock, storage yards and jewelers part way across, getting storage yards near the dock. If you want, you can keep the dock disconnected from the mining area. Then the getting storage yards by the dock will travel cross country along the quickest path to retrieve the goods, which should speed up efficiency quite a bit.

joshofet
Pleb
posted 10-11-04 10:29 ET (US)     9 / 21       
Xtof

Your intermediate SY will never work, even with micromanagement. The fastest way to transport goods from A to C is to minimize the distance between the two points (as has been suggested above), and have the cartpushers follow the shortest route between the two points (as has also been suggested above). Inserting an extra point B along that path where goods must be delivered first and picked up later will only delay delivery at C.

I think you should set the getting SY in the dock area to get max instead of 1/4, to (almost) always have two cartpushers walking. If a single SY with two carriers isn't sufficient, the only solution is to add a second independent one. Unless your dock is very busy, a normal SY is to be preferred above a BSY in this case, so you can try to prevent both SY's from filling up to more than 1/2. It depends where the dock workers pick up their load, I don't know whether that has been sorted out fully.

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-11-04 11:52 ET (US)     10 / 21       
joshofet,
With micromanagement, an "intermediate" SY certainly can work, as described in the first paragraph of reply #7. I've done similar things several times (in contests or near the beginning of a mission), when an "intermediate" SY was handy and I didn't want to build another getting SY.
WinterPharaoh
Pleb
posted 10-11-04 15:06 ET (US)     11 / 21       
It seems to have been lost in the heat of the moment, but:

Welcome to the forums, GodOfRandomDeath!

I'm trying to beat (or even come anywhere near) Max's (I think it's Max's) record of 224 months for Rostja, which means loads of calculator work, and even more

TEDIOUS MICROMANAGEMENT!

And I can concur with Brugle on one more issue - micromanagement is the most brain-freeze inducing thing I have done for a long, long time!

I too have chosen the tactic of stretching out the supply lines as far as possible while still maintaining full production, but then I decided to suplement this with a bit of a SY chain, which has turned out to be a huge mistake and I might well go mad before I finish the pyramid!

Thus far, the gem industry is halfway complete, the jewlery industry is complete, four out of an undetermined number of quarries are built, some houses have evolved to ordinary cottages (as far as they're going to) and the pyramid base is finished - all by Feb in year 3! I think that's quite impressive! BUT, I have no limestone, I'm almost broke and Ra is about to curse me! Not so impressive!


"You're just jealous because the little voices talk to me!" - Sara Rain Morgan

[This message has been edited by WinterPharaoh (edited 10-11-2004 @ 03:08 PM).]

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-11-04 21:24 ET (US)     12 / 21       
WinterPharaoh,
I don't want to discourage you from trying for a fast time in Rostja, but if you don't import the maximum limestone (more than the quota--see my Over quota river imports) every year then you probably won't have a shot at Max's record. (My guess is that the 86 limestone you didn't import will increase the completion time by 8 months.) Since construction will be limited by limestone imports for much of the mission, you should concentrate on making money and importing limestone. My Rostja, which held the speed record for a little while, had completed the gem and jewelry industries (9 fully staffed gem mines, 5 fully staffed jewelers, and Ptah's temple complex to increase production) in less than 6 months (before any work camps or quarries were built). However, all of the Rostja speed attempts that I am aware of were at Hard difficulty--if you are playing at Very Hard then buying 43 limestone the first year might require significant debt.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 10-11-2004 @ 09:51 PM).]

joshofet
Pleb
posted 10-12-04 06:15 ET (US)     13 / 21       
Brugle

I don't understand, if you want goods to be transported from A to C, why make a stopover at B? Even if you can optimize the management involved in doing that, there will be delays between the arrival of cartpushers at B and the spawning of new ones. Maybe I've used such intermediate SY's also, in hindsight it seems effective. It looks like people forming a row to move buckets of water when extinguishing a fire, but it doesn't work that way. What does help is to move the point A accepting the goods from the production facilities in the direction of C, it should not harm the production rate, and it increases the transport rate. I agree that a SY halfway between A and C rougly doubles the transport rate, but a second SY at C would do the same. A correct analogy is a serial array of two resistances of 1 Ohm in comparison to a parallel array of two of 2 Ohm, the total resistance is the same. Am I missing a point?

WinterPharaoh
Pleb
posted 10-12-04 09:40 ET (US)     14 / 21       
joshofet, what we mean is that while the cartpushers are collecting the whatever from B, those cartpushers can also be getting more whatever from A. It does increase the transfer rate, trust me.

Brugle, I have only one thing to say... Curses!!! I am 'only' playing on hard, and I did tell a little lie - I managed to import 12 limestone on the last ship from year 2, and when the first year 3 trade ship comes, I should be able to get another 12, so I'm not completley sunk, am I? Or am I? Later in the mission, another 65 limestone per year becomes available, or did Max use all that up as well?

Anyway, I will feel quite proud of myself if I do it in under 250 months (which is a third of the time it took me to do it the first time round!) I did one trial run, which was a miserable 334 months, but in that one I forgot to throw any festivals and had my entire plain stone quarrying area colapse all at once! Not the best way to break a speed record!


"You're just jealous because the little voices talk to me!" - Sara Rain Morgan

[This message has been edited by WinterPharaoh (edited 10-12-2004 @ 11:32 AM).]

joshofet
Pleb
posted 10-12-04 11:37 ET (US)     15 / 21       
WinterPharaoh

Cartpushers can only do one thing at a time. It's not a question of trust, it's a matter of logic, or logistics in this case. If the SY at point B serves no other purpose than to increase the transport rate from A to C, why not have it coincide with C? Can you show me what other position between A and C would optimize the rate?

I'm aware I'm a bit stubborn, and I understand if you won't pursue my line of questioning, I'm just wondering whether I'm missing a possibly relevant strategy.

Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-12-04 13:24 ET (US)     16 / 21       
joshofet,

My comment to you in reply #9 was mainly that your statement

Quote:

Your intermediate SY will never work, even with micromanagement.

is obviously wrong. A micromanaged SY at halfway-point B will increase transport almost as much as an extra SY at C, but (as I said in reply #7) is tedious.

Here are some reasons why a player might use a micromanaged SY at B:
*) No room for another SY at C,
*) No money or no workers (at the moment) for another SY, but there already is an SY at B with idle cart pushers,
*) Another SY at C would be farther from the dock than the existing SY(s), so it would make the dock less efficient. (This does not apply if the new SY at C is filled with an "inert" good.)


WinterPharaoh,

It depends on what you mean by "sunk". I doubt that you have a shot at beating Max's record now, but I'd consider around 300 months to be decent, and around 240 months to be very good. (Note that Baltic's classic Rostja in 317 months - guide & download originally discussed how to complete the mission in 317 months, and later became the informal Rostja competition thread.)

By the way, once finances are in decent shape, festivals shouldn't affect Rostja's completion time. (I assume that you are not using Cleopatra's "pyramid speed-up".) Each city that sells limestone already has the maximum quota of 40/year. (Just for fun, I didn't throw any festivals in Rostja.)

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 10-12-2004 @ 01:55 PM).]

WinterPharaoh
Pleb
posted 10-13-04 06:09 ET (US)     17 / 21       
What I was hoping was that by making the festival square one of the first things I built, I could get a festival to Ra in early and hopefully get a Big Ra Blessing (can sell goods for half again their value) in the first or second year. This would really give my treasury a boost early, and maybe enable me to buy the limestone early.

I have absolutley no idea how Max managed to build enough work camps to get the base finished early, while still importing the 'full' (or more than full) quota of limestone each year (that's 1,935 Db in the first year!) without going broke! I played another two months last night, and managed to end up 3k in debt and with Ra about to curse me (because I have a pop of 2000 and only three shrines to him, but I can't afford to build more shrines). I did manage to solve that one problem - throw a festival to Ra and hope he doesn't curse me in the next two months, then I've got about 5 months after that to build more shrines. If I ever get out of debt!

Life's tough, isn't it.


"You're just jealous because the little voices talk to me!" - Sara Rain Morgan
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-13-04 13:55 ET (US)     18 / 21       
WinterPharaoh,

Max is clearly a very good player, so there is no reason to think that he would waste effort, workers, and money on getting the pyramid base finished early. Check out his progressive Rostja saves (from an earlier speed record)--at the end of the first year he had 7 gem mines, 5 jewelers, Ptah's temple complex, and only 4 work camps. In the first year he sold 700 jewelry and 400 gems, bought 40 limestone, threw some festivals (apparently trying for blessings, like you), and went a little over 2000 Db in debt.

When I built Rostja, I concentrated even more on making money and finished the export industries quickly, while not throwing any festivals. In the first year I sold 1500 jewelry and 2600 gems, bought 43 limestone, built all 13 work camps, and avoided debt.

Some of life is tough, some is not, but for much the toughness depends on your actions. Pharaoh is a lot less tough if you first concentrate on the most important things, such as making money.

PharaohManana
Pleb
posted 07-10-18 07:33 ET (US)     19 / 21       
When distances are large then multiple "getting" storage yards may be needed to move the desired volume of goods. My Rostja (in the Downloads) uses 1 storage yard near the dock to get jewelry plus 2 storage yards near the dock (1 of them filled with game meat to increase the "getting" capacity, but that may not be necessary) to get gems.
I'm sory I'm a bit late to this party, but could you please clarify how filling a SY with game increases it's "getting" capacity?
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 07-10-18 08:36 ET (US)     20 / 21       
PharaohManana,
Double a "getting" storage yard's delivery capacity

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-10-2018 @ 08:36 AM).]

PharaohManana
Pleb
posted 07-10-18 08:47 ET (US)     21 / 21       
Thanks!
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