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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Caesar III: Game Help » Broken Massilia -- Help!
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Topic Subject:Broken Massilia -- Help!
HagridOfTheDeep
Pleb
posted 08-12-19 13:17 ET (US)         
So I am at the end of my patience with this level.

I was trying to challenge myself to make an "organic-looking" city that did not just rely on perfectly geometric blocks. As you can see, my main housing areas have managed to achieve relative stability with large/grand insulaes, and I have a palace block that has been stable for quite a while. I almost exclusively get my income from tax money.

Sadly, I have not perfected finishing levels quickly (which has made aging a problem, and looking at the demographics it is about to get VERY BAD) and I imagine I am using way too many warehouses set on "getting" for the city to be considered efficient. Both of these issues have given me significant problems with worker shortages.

I built a huge area of slums to try to counteract this, but I am not sure how to transition away from the slums, and they are still not enough. I need to get rid of them to reach the prosperity threshold for the level.

My plan was to build some new blocks that I would leave as casas, as it is difficult to manufacture enough pottery. It hasn't worked for a few reasons I've observed. Mainly, my people are all pissed off because of the slums, so immigrants won't come. The natural solution is to delete the slums, but if I do this, even "temporarily," I can't sustain my palaces (which I rely on for money, so plunge into debt) and I can't sustain my insulaes (which further lowers my population and creates a horrible downward cycle). It is also challenging to feed more people and find enough space on the map.

I suppose the solution is to delete jobs, but I am really not sure what I can afford to delete.

I have uploaded the save file where I have just attempted to create a new block that might allow me to begin deleting the slums. I haven't been able to make it work, but if someone wouldn't mind poking around and offering some advice, I would be SO thankful. I don't want to start from scratch.



SAVE FILE:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13P-ubH-qbr0YohBRm3ClXDfwooGL7Mpk/view?usp=sharing
AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 08-12-19 16:28 ET (US)     1 / 6       
a palace block that has been stable for quite a while
The palace block does not have any palaces. The best houses are 7 large villas (since they don't get fruit), and I wouldn't call it stable since only 2 of the villas are fully populated.
I almost exclusively get my income from tax money
That is reasonable, but you should be collecting more (at least before you built the slums)--the tax rate can probably be raised, compensated by increasing the wage rate to at least Rome+2, probably to Rome+8.
Sadly, I have not perfected finishing levels quickly
I don't think you have even started to finish levels quickly. All "career" missions can be finished in less than 20 years. It is OK to take somewhat longer (I did when I built Londinium), but 128 years is much too long.

You might like to read Caesar Alan's The four phases of city-building (reply #1).
I imagine I am using way too many warehouses set on "getting" for the city to be considered efficient
In general, don't use warehouses to get food. Put much of the housing close to food sources (in Massilia, near the coast), so you can get food without moving it. If you have grand insulae, you will probably want to move wheat from one or both islands onto the mainland, but it should be obtained by getting granaries (which are over twice as efficient as getting warehouses) and not moved very far.

For the palace block, you could use getting granaries (as I did the first time I built Massilia), or you avoid getting granaries by putting the palace block close to the coast (as I did the second time I built Massilia). Don't connect the palace block to any block that shouldn't get fruit, except perhaps a small one.
Both of these issues have given me significant problems with worker shortages
The best way to avoid aging is to finish in a reasonable time. If you know you will take a long time to finish (this is more of a problem in Pharaoh), you might frequently kick some people out (perhaps by deleting some fountains) and then let them return (perhaps by rebuilding the fountain)--the new people should be younger on average. I have never done this, but it has worked for some players.

You might get rid of some temples (use oracles instead of temples to keep the gods happy) and some unneeded entertainment (12 amphitheaters and 4 colosseums seems like too many).
I am not sure how to transition away from the slums
I have no idea how to do that. I don't build slums, except in a few weird cities where slums were part of the final city.
my people are all pissed off because of the slums, so immigrants won't come
Don't let your people get pissed off. Sentiment is caused by several things, and you can improve it by changing the condition that people complain about (such as getting rid of slums), but you can usually improve it in other ways (such as raising the wage rate or cutting the tax rate).
It is also challenging to feed more people and find enough space on the map
It is. In Massilia, it is probably best to have not too much over the required population.
if someone wouldn't mind poking around and offering some advice, I would be SO thankful. I don't want to start from scratch
To me, starting over (with a better plan) seems the easiest way. Or you delete most of the city, keeping the forts (and maybe the hippodrome with a few people to give it fire and damage protection), build a new city with young immigrants, and complete it in not much over 20 more years.

I hope this helps. Feel free to as questions.
HagridOfTheDeep
Pleb
posted 08-12-19 19:03 ET (US)     2 / 6       
Thanks for your help. Somewhere along the line I accidentally put two of the palace granaries to accepting wheat, at the expense of fruit. It stabilizes when I rectify the mistake.

I was originally using warehouses to transport wheat across the map because I feared looping my wheat farms into the road network of the city would encourage my market ladies to walk all the way to the granary on that island. Your help in the other thread re: market ladies traveling no more than 39 squares was instructive, so I'll look into fixing my food network and getting rid of warehouse jobs.

Your point about aging and time is well-taken; I'm just not prepared to start over, and I want to believe it's possible to create a self-sustaining city that could run itself forever.

Thanks again.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 08-13-19 09:39 ET (US)     3 / 6       
I was originally using warehouses to transport wheat across the map because I feared looping my wheat farms into the road network of the city would encourage my market ladies to walk all the way to the granary on that island
The solution to that is to not have a "road network of the city". My Happy Massilia has 3 unconnected road networks with food producers: one on the small farming island supporting about half of the grand insulae, one on the western part of the large island supporting the rest of the grand insulae, and one on the eastern part of the large island supporting the palaces.

Using warehouses to get food is certainly possible: I have done that in only a couple of cities. goonsquad is more fond of the idea.

It is also possible to connect all roads and put some granaries far enough from some houses to prevent them from getting the food. My Happy Tarsus does that, with all large insulae markets far from the wheat granary. (Following a suggestion by Zarquan, I built two cities, each with a single granary where all houses eat the same foods, and eventually I intend to build Massilia the same way.)
I want to believe it's possible to create a self-sustaining city that could run itself forever
A fascinating subject that occupied several of us for a while. A "ghost" may form when someone reaches 100 years old. A ghost occupies space in housing, eats, and pays taxes, but does not show in the population and is too old to work. Some populations will form ghosts until the city collapses, others will fall into a demographic cycle where ghosts no longer form. A long thread which covers some of our research (much of it by Trium) is Are there any truly eternal cities in Caesar 3?. Replies 96 and 97 have some useful information.

equi's ghost elimination test shows a city that has run for around 7000 years (after forming only 2 ghosts) and should run for much longer. I created a city that should have done the same, but I carelessly didn't give it good enough fire protection so a theater caught fire after about 200 years. I added more prefectures and it ran fine for about 14000 years, but it won't form a stable demographic cycle (with over 300 ghosts) for about 15000 more years. It had some other problems so I didn't put it in the downloads. Both equi and my cities were built before our research was completed.

In Pharaoh, I built a city which I thought would run for thousands of years, but it failed due to unexpected bazaar buyer behavior. Later, when I knew more, I built it again (with a very different design) and it ran fine for about 5000 years (forming 46 ghosts before falling into a demographic cycle), and I expect it would run much longer.
HagridOfTheDeep
Pleb
posted 08-13-19 15:04 ET (US)     4 / 6       
Sounds very interesting! After playing this Massilia map for a while, I am more and more convinced that this city is not one which will achieve demographic stability, haha.

THAT BEING SAID, I did just manage to win with the map I shared. It required me to make a better new housing block (9x9) to the east of where my wonky new one was. As people moved in, I slowly deleted the slums four 1x1 housing units at a time. This took place over years, but I am now at 100 prosperity.

In the meantime, I connected the southeast island mostly back into the road network and eliminated warehouse food distribution. I did create a small loop of farms on that island which were attached to the palace network but detached from the rest of the city. Most of those farms were fruit, save for two wheat farms, and I imported the remaining wheat for the palaces. It required me to move my dock to the shore on the east. I realized I had too many wharves over there as well, so I got rid of a few to help with my worker shortage.

Achieving the culture rating did require me to dip back down into a worker shortage of ~130 after deleting my miltary academy/barracks, and keeping up with pottery was always a yearly challenge by the time clay imports ran out, but... I made it! And I am very glad I did not have to delete the city and start again.

Thanks for all your help.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 08-13-19 16:14 ET (US)     5 / 6       
Well done.
jaroslav80
Pleb
posted 08-15-19 07:24 ET (US)     6 / 6       
HagridOfTheDeep please can you tell me what gamespeed do you use most often during the gameplay? I guess it is 80%-90% out of maximum speed.

I start map on 10% and most of the gameplay I spend in 30-40% speed. I often use pause game during placing new blocks.
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