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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Emperor: Game Help » Invasions and walls - Siege of Dunghuang
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Topic Subject:Invasions and walls - Siege of Dunghuang
Serrataur
Pleb
posted 05-22-20 10:05 ET (US)         
POSSIBLE SPOILER BELOW


I played this scenario a few times, seeking to hopefully improve city efficiency, military strength and to finish quicker.

I noticed that each time I played (hard), the notice of first invasion came quicker.
1st time in Mar 778 CE
2nd time in Aug 777 CE
3rd and 4th time in Jun 776 CE.

Is this random, because it looks like to me that the scenario AI looks at how advanced my city is and invades accordingly.

I should add that although the first time the invasion was later, there were subsequent invasions sooner (as if the AI was catching up???)


Also. I hate cities with pre-built walls. They are always in the "wrong" place. Mostly I delete them.
If I place walls I prefer to do it strategically at access points, but they don't surround the city.

I read on the forum that enemies can walk through along the shoreline if a wall butts up against water.

I'm reasonably sure that walls in gaps between rocks are "leakproof", but can you butt leakproof walls up against the "sandy" cliffs (not just rocky ones). There are a lot of them in this scenario.

How about walls up to the edge of the map, are these leakproof.

[This message has been edited by Serrataur (edited 05-22-2020 @ 10:12 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Gweilo
Angel
posted 05-22-20 16:10 ET (US)     1 / 10       
What was the favor of the invading city when it launched the invasion? If it was 'Hostile' then the invasion is probably random, not scripted. I believe you are experiencing random invasions based on you saying the invasions come at different times when you replay the mission.

Here are my observations about random invasion (based on years of playing). Random invasions may be triggered by the game AI more frequently if you play at the higher difficulty levels. Within that difficulty-level framework, I believe the AI considers the following factors:

1. The current favor of rival cities towards you (lower favor = higher chance of attacking you)
2. The current strength of your military (i.e., how many shield icons do you show on the empire map? More shields = less chance of being attacked).

I am still uncertain if showing a 'fortified' city icon on the empire map affects the triggering of random invasions or not. I would say 'no' based on my experiences, but that may not be true.

Now about walling your city. Yes, there are many 'leak points' that you must watch out for in your walled cities. You are correct, enemy units will walk along a shoreline and/or move amphibiously in boats on a river to trace pathing around your walls and into your city. If you want to see an example of that, look in the Gallery here at Emperor Heaven and look through the screenshots in the album called "The Wayward Sun Wu Kong" under "Custom Campaing Teasers". I put one screenshot there of a big invasion marching towards my city along a riverline.

I agree with you that rocks a "leak proof". I believe desert sand is also leak proof. However, you cannot butt walls up against shoreline sand, because sand is traverseable terrain. Enemy units will walk on it (and your own troops can too).
Also, walls up the the 'red' map edge do not seem to be leak proof.

Hope this helps.

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Serrataur
Pleb
posted 05-23-20 04:54 ET (US)     2 / 10       
Yes, it does help, thanks. Your answers always help.

At the time of first notice (ie in 6 months' time) of invasion, invading city Lhasa was hostile. This was true in every case.
In fact Lhasa is hostile right at the start as soon as contact can be established with a request for trade.

I think the intention of the scenario designer is repeated invasions from Lhasa until either victory or defeat. The scenario title indicates this as does the mission briefing:
The Tibetans are out there, and they will surely come if they scent a weakness. Let them come, and let their vile ranks impale themselves recklessly upon the high walls of Dunhuang!
In each case, My city has one shield, and Lhasa has two shields.

It's a very quick mission, all you need is to survive invasions and have a city of 2500, to make 10 steel and 10 salt and 5 trading partners.
In my quickest case Mission starts Feb 775 CE and I'd finished at end of Feb 778 CE.

It doesn't look practical to have elite housing so (let's say) you are limited to two forts, the 3 troops Changan sends and Sun Wu Kong.
In the first two cases at 6 months notice stage I had 2 x 16 infantry
In the last two I had 12 and 13 infantry but 2 x 16 by the time of the invasion.

The main problem is running out of money. You are gifted some weapons at the start but you need to import some weapons to start with to get the forts quickly and to import jade to make carved jade to summon Sun Wu Kong.

It might be more efficient to bribe Lhasa, not bother with Sun Wu Kong or import weapons. But make your own and export them.

I'll try that next. It might be interesting to see whether actually placing forts, or not placing them makes a difference to invasions. I'll post results later...


*********************

... New game: Placed Admin city (for taxes) but no Palace. No forts placed. No Buddist Pagoda, exported Carved Jade at the start. Gifted some of my gift of weapons to Yangzou and opened trade then made and exported weapons to them.

Won scenario in Feb 778 with 12700 cash surplus.
No notice of invasion, no actual invasion.

Went back to earlier save, placed fort at same time as admin city in Apr 777. Got first notice of invasion in Aug 777

Went back to even earlier save. Placed admin city and fort in Nov 775. Got first notice of invasion in Jun 776.

So it looks to me like the trigger for invasion is placing the first fort.

[This message has been edited by Serrataur (edited 05-23-2020 @ 06:54 AM).]

Gweilo
Angel
posted 05-23-20 08:09 ET (US)     3 / 10       
Your observations are interesting. Yesterday I was playing the "Refurbish Job" mission from the Sui-Tang campaign and was invaded by a 'hostile' Lhasa before I had placed any military units. I was playing at 'Very Hard' difficulty.

One more thing I forgot to mention that helps differentiate between a random invasion and a scripted one: as soon as you get the message that an invasion is coming, begin checking the favor of that attacking city on the empire map. If the invasion was random, their favor will actually increase towards you, but this may not be noticeable for a few game-months. So for example if they were 'hostile' then they may go up to 'displeased', or if they were 'displeased' they may go up to 'apathetic'.

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user3
Pleb
posted 05-23-20 08:21 ET (US)     4 / 10       
*********************

... New game: Placed Admin city (for taxes) but no Palace. No forts placed. No Buddist Pagoda, exported Carved Jade at the start. Gifted some of my gift of weapons to Yangzou and opened trade then made and exported weapons to them.

Won scenario in Feb 778 with 12700 cash surplus.
No notice of invasion, no actual invasion.

Went back to earlier save, placed fort at same time as admin city in Apr 777. Got first notice of invasion in Aug 777

Went back to even earlier save. Placed admin city and fort in Nov 775. Got first notice of invasion in Jun 776.
Did you perform the same gifting of weapons to Yangzhou in near-exact timing?
Was your coin count about the same or higher during the variations?
Any worker shortages that delayed the first troop creation? {weak military trigger forgot the popular term}
Yes, there is a 'safety-hold on random invasions' when not placing forts in short missions, depends on the diff-level of when the 'hold' is released. Playing at Very-Hard I would expect the invasion notice to be messaged but the mission can be finished before it arrives.

There is at least one example of the city in the download section.

[This message has been edited by user3 (edited 05-23-2020 @ 08:59 AM).]

Serrataur
Pleb
posted 05-23-20 09:28 ET (US)     5 / 10       
Thanks for replies.

In my first original case Lhasa was hostile right through the first invasion notices and their eventual military defeat and beyond the first notice of the second invasion until the 3 month notice of the second invasion when they became Apathetic in Apr 779 and remained so.

In my second original case LLasa became Apathetic in Aug 777 directly after the first notice of invasion.

By the time I'd played it once or twice I knew which cities would trade and only asked for trade or sent gift to those that would. ie not Lhasa.
If you don't approach Lhasa, you don't see anything about them, ie whether hostile or not so can't answer about the rest

With regard to gifting of weapons and coin count, I just rolled on at high speed without further building after placing fort until I got a notice of invasion.
So for the first of those was after my gift and coin count from memory was around 8000 but I was already making and selling more weapons . the second time was before my gift which never happened. The coin count from memory was around 13000.
user3
Pleb
posted 05-23-20 21:16 ET (US)     6 / 10       
Things that may be helpful.

How city favor works and why 'Hostile' isn't a good gauge of city favor level(recent big drop notice only, probably scripted in Sui-Tang/Dunghuang to occur several times[recurring event or multiple events]) - http://emperor.heavengames.com/gameinfo/cityfavour/
also note the very small changes of valuable gifts to other cities can effect Lhasa's true city favor points which may cause a better outcome(ie reducing chance of the random invasion).
Conversely, Requesting troops from an ally would have negative impact on Lhasa so maybe getting a 'fighting hero' in your city would satisfy the 1 troop requirement for not triggering a defenseless situation(time consuming so not worth the effort if you're going for a quick win).
Perhaps try placing an infantry fort earlier and devoting a high priority to Military employment until you have at least 1 troop.

Emissary Behavior that impacts gameplay when many are sent(ie reverse order spawnings)- https://my-palace.fandom.com/wiki/Emperor:_Ministry_Tabs/_Government/_Administrative_City#Walker
On the Empire map you send gifting emissaries to city#1 - city#2 then city#3; Emmisaries are generated at the spawn building in this order city#3, city#2 then city#1. Never mix gifts with trade requests or suffer the problem of gifts arriving after the trade request is processed.

City Walls
http://caesar3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/caeforumscgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=19,7569,,all
https://my-palace.fandom.com/wiki/Emperor:_Ministry_Tabs/_Military/_Fortifications/_City_Walls

-Happy gaming
user3

[This message has been edited by user3 (edited 05-23-2020 @ 10:19 PM).]

Serrataur
Pleb
posted 05-24-20 06:09 ET (US)     7 / 10       
I was wrong - It's not the presence of forts that's the trigger. It does look randomish.

I had one more go at this this morning.
I decided not to evolve beyond Elegant Dwelling and not tax at all, so I could use tax office and acupuncturist spaces for housing, no admin city, (and no forts of course) and have more labour early and get finished quicker. Also you don't need Chengdu Trading post as you won't need paper, and save more cash and labour that way - but you won't be able to export Salt to them.

However I had a 6 month warning of invasion in July 776 when I had about 10000 cash, and the bribe I had to pay 6 months later was 6000.
So it appears somewhat random after all.

For the record I finished in Jan 777 with 4563 cash.


For anyone reading this for walkthrough info who decided to fight, I'd say it was well possible to beat Lhasa with two forts but without Sun Wu Kong, saving all that lovely carved jade for export and use the space for the pagoda for another house; or walls and towers (demolish if they are in the way)

[This message has been edited by Serrataur (edited 05-24-2020 @ 06:29 AM).]

Gweilo
Angel
posted 05-24-20 07:49 ET (US)     8 / 10       
I am currently replaying the Sui-Tang core campaign and am now ready for the "Siege of Dunghuang" mission. I'm going to try a build using the military option first.

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Gweilo
Angel
posted 05-25-20 08:36 ET (US)     9 / 10       
I had a lot of fun replaying "The Siege of Dunhuang" after so many years. It was a real challenge at 'Very Hard' difficulty with the house rule of achieving perfect Feng Shui.

I went for a speed build so of course I meticulously micromanaged the first game-year. I ignored elite housing but did use taxation. I also used Guan Di's blessing to get more weapons faster.

I only fought one invasion (776 CE) before winning the mission (victory in 3 years). I did replay that part of the mission a few different times, to re-spawn the invasion so I could test out some things about military walls. I did not find anything different from what we discussed here.

Here is a minimap of my Dunhuang:

http://emperor.heavengames.com/gallery/album29/aaa

Expand your fun by downloading free custom campaigns for Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom.
Visit Zeus Heaven to expand your knowledge of Zeus and Poseidon.
Serrataur
Pleb
posted 05-26-20 06:51 ET (US)     10 / 10       
I've never used a blessing. In fact I either didn't even know how to do it, or had forgotten totally.
Now I do, and I learned something new for the future.
So thanks again.
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