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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Zeus: Game Help » Zeus : walker disappearance
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Topic Subject:Zeus : walker disappearance
Sto
Pleb
posted 04-18-09 07:09 ET (US)         
A while ago, i remember that when i built a gigantic map with 20K people and the map filled with things, I begun to have problems with walkers. Some begin to not appear periodically and that caused a lots of problems. The traders comes without donkeys, etc ... like if Zeus have reach a maximum object created and can't manage to create some others.

I've reinstalled Zeus on my machine and the bug still occur ... but this time the map is half filled with only 10K people !!!

Does other players have the same problem ? Or not at all. Perhaps a someone know how to fix this ?

My machine :

Pentium4 3.2 GHz
2 Go de RAM
LEADTECK 6600 256 Mo

O.S : Windows XP SP3


When i try to run ZEUS in compatibility mode 98 i get this error : "unable to load function : FT_Thunk(KERNEL32.dll)
It works well with 2000, but does the same.

I play with the origianl CD inserted - Gold edition.

A link to a save :
Edit : file removed

At this time there is an attack of Appolon, but some m.o at the NE begin to not appear, that provokes collapse and fires. Some rare traders comes but the donkeys don't appear. If someone would help me to check if the same BUG occurs with him, that would great to know at least if that comes from my machine ^^.

Thank you for any help !

[This message has been edited by Sto (edited 04-23-2009 @ 05:19 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
joshofet
Pleb
posted 04-19-09 05:50 ET (US)     1 / 20       
The first issue is probably the walker sprite limit. Nothing technical, better ask in the game help forum how you can decrease the number of walkers in your city. We may need some more specifics on your design. Maybe some other player will want to get your file from the link you provided, I am hesitant to visit such sites if I don't know them.

The second issue doesn't seem to be one, you have the game running, so what is the problem?
PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 04-19-09 06:35 ET (US)     2 / 20       
Moving to the Zeus: Game Help forum.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
Sto
Pleb
posted 04-19-09 06:58 ET (US)     3 / 20       
For the second issue, that's just I've tested everything I've read in the technical forum. And seen somewhere that's better to play under 98 mode.

For the upload, this is just a megaupload without registration where you can upload without an account (I've checked the upload ... but I understand your hesitation).

I've remove one entire block, stop a lots of trading, adjust food and productions, simplify walker paths. The bug still occur with less walkers than before (a little time after). What alarms me is the fact that it seems that I have much less walkers than in another games I've made recently.

About the technical details on my machine that would help, I don't know what to provide. Especially if I don't know if this comes from my machine or if this is just the game limit.

Anyway, thanks for the help ... I will play some smaller maps I think. That's just very frustrating to be unable to play a huge map.

Thank you !

[This message has been edited by Sto (edited 04-19-2009 @ 07:01 AM).]

PCDania
Pleb
(id: PCD)
posted 04-19-09 07:17 ET (US)     4 / 20       
And seen somewhere that's better to play under 98 mode.
The compatibility modes are only there because they might make older programs run that will not run otherwise. Unfortunately some people still generally advice using compatibility mode on pre-WinXP(and pre-Vista) programs, regardless if it's necessary or not or regardless if the problem occurring is related to compatibility or not. With that said, sometimes it's a good idea trying out compatibility mode as one never knows. If it does not solve the problem one is best off not using compatibility mode.

"Cats are the only animals that are both uber, pwns and 1337 at the same time." -King Euric
By reading this fine print your soul is now the exclusive property of HeavenGames.
oivey
Pleb
posted 04-19-09 09:21 ET (US)     5 / 20       
Are you using more dairies to feed your people? If it is the sprite limit you are encountering, this would make you hit it much faster even though you have less walkers than before, as each goat counts as a sprite.
Sto
Pleb
posted 04-19-09 09:49 ET (US)     6 / 20       

You're right, i use some goats (urchins are too far). So , I'll just play huge maps with wheat or carrots.

Speaking of that, does this limit of sprites involve also static ones like the goods stored or just the animated ones like walkers ?

Does a pyramid with 500 blocks of marble count as 500 sprites ^^ !? boulevard and such ?

I've just read the info that say some thing about "limit of data". (Mine is in French so i can't report it -> in the readme.txt). Looks like numbers of elements, walkers and also WALKER'S WAYS are involved. That bother me a bit.

I've tried with the saved file to remove step by step some things to evaluate "a" limit : storage, pyramid, simplify walker paths. It seems that only the walkers affect the performance.
joshofet
Pleb
posted 04-19-09 11:55 ET (US)     7 / 20       
If you reached a limit it's the walker limit, not the buildings one, but if the problem persists after you removed a substantial number of walkers, it must be something else.

As I understand, the file is from Poseidon, you can send it to the address in my profile and I will give it a look.

There is no problem in posting a part such as a quote in French on this forum, provided the normal language of the post is English. I don't know what the exact French phrase is, but I can't imagine what aspect of a walker other than its existence would influence the walker sprite limit.
Sto
Pleb
posted 04-19-09 13:51 ET (US)     8 / 20       
Thank you!

I will update the save, after the Appolon attack and send you the save with the next upcoming bugs. That will be great to know if this comes from my machine.

About the comment for "limit of data", it's in the readme.txt file in the game folder after the technical problems. That's just a little hard to translate but it seems that walker paths have also an influence and not just its existence.
TuShaWuJin
Pleb
(id: shaun1)
posted 04-19-09 18:09 ET (US)     9 / 20       
"DATA LIMIT REACHED"
There are limits to how many buildings, walkers and walker routes Zeus/Poseidon can handle. Though these limits are quite high, you might reach them if you build a city of 25,000 or more people. If you do see this message, your only recourse is to resculpt your city for greater efficiency.
The 'routes' are probably referring to destination walkers as a separate group from random walkers. The game engine doesn't have but one 'walker limit' which is shared by all walker types. The extra 'walker routes' statement might be referring to the entry points immigrant/trader queue, which spawns the next walker only when there is an available walker slot to be allocated.
does this limit of sprites involve also static ones like the goods stored or just the animated ones like walkers ?
just the animated walkers moving about the map, not static building animations

The building limit is not effected by the walker limit and vise-a-verse.
Does a pyramid with 500 blocks of marble count as 500 sprites ^^ !? boulevard and such ?
It isnt that drastic. Generally, roads and gardens do not count againt the building limit, statues and most buildings(including storage facilities) use 1 building slot, the agora uses several but the vendor shops do not use building slots, Special Sanctuaries and Pyramids can use dozens of building slots but it is less then its footprint size and construction materials arn't even a factor.

[This message has been edited by TuShaWuJin (edited 04-19-2009 @ 07:38 PM).]

Sto
Pleb
posted 04-20-09 04:54 ET (US)     10 / 20       
Thank you very much for all these explanations. That makes it very clear.

I will try to do some test to evaluate this limit.

Edit : I've made a little test with cheese production off and a little housing block. problems come after about 2000 goats ^^ ( 2048 !?)

[This message has been edited by Sto (edited 04-20-2009 @ 06:55 AM).]

oivey
Pleb
posted 04-20-09 06:57 ET (US)     11 / 20       
I suspect "walker routes" refers to the route followed by a destination walker, counted separately from the walker itself. That data has to be kept in memory, so it makes sense it would contribute the the data limit.

edit: I read a post somewhere that suggested the sprite limit is 2000 and the building limit is 1000, which seems consistent with your findings. That's a lot of goats!

[This message has been edited by oivey (edited 04-20-2009 @ 07:00 AM).]

Sto
Pleb
posted 04-20-09 08:11 ET (US)     12 / 20       
I guess TuShaWuJin is right about walker's routes. If something like paths were saved -> that would involve that every paths should be recalculated every time you build a single road tile.

I guess that the walkers have just one action in memory like "go to point x,y (with aim x2,y2 for destination walkers, and path lenght for random walkers)" and check if it encounter an obstacle then decide for the next point.
For an example, if you delete a route for a walker, it will follow the old path except if you build an obstacle on its old route.

That's makes sense for the data limit. And that would be exponential for a herding walker if the route have to be saved.

[This message has been edited by Sto (edited 04-20-2009 @ 08:13 AM).]

joshofet
Pleb
posted 04-23-09 03:46 ET (US)     13 / 20       
I ran the save you sent me and have instability problems as well. The map starts with a large lack of workers and already several areas have bad fire protection. Once the fires break out, the guards come over to put them down, and fail to protect the areas they patrol normally.

There is much more food produced then the city needs, looks like you had this map tailored to mass produce for a big city, using a number of exploits. If you have that many goats, and sheep, and all the prey animals, that will draw heavily on the walker sprite limit.

Housing levels of many lots are fluctuating, which generates vagrants and immigrants, who also add to the walker limit.

I don't know whether your city was doomed for instability right from the start, the large number of goats and sheep are certainly a factor, but my guess is you can stretch that a lot further than you have done now. The main instability is due to unbalances in your development.

Try to avoid employment problems by adjusting the wage level, if you have money problems (which you don't) you can change the tax level accordingly (and probably make a profit from it).

Do not overproduce so much food, better have your city in balance at all times and gradually push all levels by expanding where you need or can.

Maybe you did already do these thing, the city you sent me is very unstable, and once that happens, it is hard to see what originally was the cause. My guess it is reaching the sprite limit that triggered it, but what exactly made you pass that limit I cannot tell. It doesn't appear to be related to your PC.
Sto
Pleb
posted 04-23-09 05:18 ET (US)     14 / 20       
Thank you very much for the test ^! I know now it has nothing to do with my machine and that herding isn't good for a big city.

Appolon frequent attacks on science add a lot of immigrants, vagrants. There was no problems before the sprites limit. Obviously the houses devolve with no science but everything were stabilized after the remove of the curse.
On this game the problems appear just after I've added the oil production (some olive collector didn't come out). And from this point, it was near impossible to stabilize the houses again.

I've tried after to stabilize the map : remove one common housing block, adjust food, fleece and oil. But I've got some problems in a later episode also so I've given up this game and will never do another big map with goats (... and Appolon).

I'm relieved that it doesn't comes from my pc. And I've learned a lot about this limit.

Thanks again!

[This message has been edited by Sto (edited 04-23-2009 @ 05:33 AM).]

mgro
Pleb
posted 05-19-15 06:54 ET (US)     15 / 20       
Sorry for posting if this is a dead thread, but any help is appreciated! I have the same issues in a huge city, so I will obviously look to optimize the city. However, I have also found that when I attack an enemy with absolutely everything I have (20 horse armies, 6 triremes, all vassals/allies possible, heroes etc), and the enemy is at 1 shield strength, my attacks still get defeated which doesn't happen usually, obviously. Is this related to the walker limit?
Mazeppa
Pleb
posted 05-19-15 09:59 ET (US)     16 / 20       
Sorry for posting if this is a dead thread, but any help is appreciated! I have the same issues in a huge city, so I will obviously look to optimize the city. However, I have also found that when I attack an enemy with absolutely everything I have (20 horse armies, 6 triremes, all vassals/allies possible, heroes etc), and the enemy is at 1 shield strength, my attacks still get defeated which doesn't happen usually, obviously. Is this related to the walker limit?
It's not related at all.
Take a look at my reply in the Adventure Design section at the bug notes thread where you mentioned about it.
hades12headedpig
Pleb
posted 10-17-17 02:26 ET (US)     17 / 20       
In some large cities I built, when enemy soldiers get close to a maintenance office, the walker from that maintenance office will often disappear, only reemerge for a short time.

After deleting goats, houses, then reload it, turn to 98 mode, increase virtual memory, but the maintenance office walker still disappear before the enemy soldiers go to the other part of the map, at the other location, another maintenance office walker disappears.
user3
Pleb
posted 10-17-17 03:56 ET (US)     18 / 20       
Sounds like the maintenance worker is running from the enemy troops. Haven't you noted that lots of walkers will run from monsters, angry gods and enemy troops in zeus/posd? At least, that's how I remember it.(shrug)
Did you muster your rabble forces? They dont seem to run away until they get bloodied badly in a fight.
You could try building another maintenance office far enough away from the enimies that it will cover at least some of the building, if your worried they may catch fire/become ruins.

[This message has been edited by user3 (edited 10-17-2017 @ 04:04 AM).]

hades12headedpig
Pleb
posted 12-08-17 05:53 ET (US)     19 / 20       
And, This one is just some fun stuff,

Besides changing the program or using any mod for more sanctuaries, if 4 sanctuaries are built, then delete one of them, sec later, if one of some other gods appears to greet the city leader, then undo it so that the deleted sanctuary reappears, if the reappeared sanctuary god comes to the city at that time, the god body of the reappeared sanctuary will not be shown up until the greeting god leaves the city.

I somehow test this at Argos, Zeus Hades Athena Hermes sanctuaries are built, I delete Hermes sanctuary, sec later, Dionysus says greeting, I undo the deletion, then Hermes sanctuary emerges candles, click Hermes' name to notice Hermes is walking but his body is not shown up, after Dionysus leaves the city, Hermes's body is suddenly re-shown up, walking.

[This message has been edited by hades12headedpig (edited 12-08-2017 @ 05:57 AM).]

Mazeppa
Pleb
posted 12-12-17 21:29 ET (US)     20 / 20       
Besides changing the program or using any mod for more sanctuaries, if 4 sanctuaries are built, then delete one of them, sec later, if one of some other gods appears to greet the city leader, then undo it so that the deleted sanctuary reappears, if the reappeared sanctuary god comes to the city at that time, the god body of the reappeared sanctuary will not be shown up until the greeting god leaves the city.
I think I know what you're talking about.

I believe this is somehow related to the bug someone found in Genis' previous version of her adventure "Everybody loves Oranges". She hex-edited the last episode where the player had the option to build a temple to an enemy god, as a little surprise factor. In the end however, someone experienced a crash in the game at that moment, which meant she had to edit that episode again.

I think the reason the god body doesn't show up until the "offering god" leaves - in your case - could perhaps stem from a game mechanism that functions to prevent a crash. I suspect that in the game, 2 of the same gods must not exist at the same time - meaning you can't have Zeus offering you to worship him, and another Zeus appearing to bless the city at the same time.. otherwise a game crash will occur. Likewise if you have an enemy god pouncing your city, whilst the same god would appear asking you to worship him.

EDIT: This could also explain the oddity when you script a Zeus invasion to happen in your adventure at let's say.. month 1, then the same god invades at month 2, then at month 3 and so on. If you playtest that adventure, this is what will happen:

- Zeus comes at month 1 to destroy your city.
- The next Zeus invasion doesn't occur until Zeus leaves.


So even if you script a Zeus invasion at month 2, it will be made redundant unless Zeus leaves at month 1, meaning even 2 of the same attacking gods must also not exist. I believe this is also related to your case here.

Well, that's my theory to it, anyway.

[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 12-12-2017 @ 09:47 PM).]

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