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Caesar III: Game Help
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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Caesar III: Game Help » Markets producing traders but not buyers
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Topic Subject:Markets producing traders but not buyers
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-25-18 02:45 ET (US)         
I wanted to try out a new type of palace block, so went back to one of my older Valentia saves where I knew I already had the food, goods and workers and where the villa/palace block I had tried out then wasn't too stable.

I put down granaries and warehouses together with some slum houses (which I normally don't allow on my cities, but o well) and waited. After they had filled up a bit, I gave the tents-to-be-palaces a couple of markets.

Here, I observed a curious problem: the markets produced market traders, but not buyers. No matter how long I waited, no buyers spawned. I checked road connections etc., and all was well. I deleted the markets and then placed them again - no effect. Then I removed the gatehouse, which of course had no effect other than the traders wandering up to the granary, obviously without ever buying something. I added a market closer by on the 'wrong' side of the gatehouse, and they too only produced traders.

I thought maybe it was the walker sprite - even though I was only at 12000 peeps - that somehow only affected buyers and not traders, and demolished a couple of my industries. Again, no effect.

Then, just to check if I wasn't going crazy, I added another market to an already existing block, only to see the same thing happen there.

Then I decided to be done with it and reloaded a different Valentia save (not of the same playthrough) and was finally able to build me some palaces. Pfew. Spoiler alert: my new block works quite well.

Does anyone know what can cause this problem? I can upload a saved file if anyone is interested.
AuthorReplies:
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-25-18 06:08 ET (US)     1 / 15       
The only reasons I can think of for not producing a market buyer are that the granary is too far away or that the market does not have good labor access. However, from your description, I'd guess that neither of those are true.

You can send a saved game to the address in my profile (putting C3 in the email subject), and I'll take a look at it.
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-25-18 09:23 ET (US)     2 / 15       
The only reasons I can think of for not producing a market buyer are that the granary is too far away or that the market does not have good labor access. However, from your description, I'd guess that neither of those are true.
Nope, none of the above, like you said. Now that I would have noticed ;-)

I don't have the file here right now, but I'll fetch it when I can. Wouldn't it be better however to upload it in the download section, so others can weigh in, or just have a look at it if they wish so?

(I'm just now thinking, would be just my luck if I re-load the save file in a while only for the markets to work perfectly. I've had other glitches - namely the animation of buildings not working - go away after a re-start of either the game or the computer, and I haven't tried that with the markets so far. Anyhoo, I'll make sure to let it know here however it works out!)
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-25-18 10:14 ET (US)     3 / 15       
Wouldn't it be better however to upload it in the download section,
Sure, if you prefer. However, it typically takes a day or two before a submission is accepted.
would be just my luck if I re-load the save file in a while only for the markets to work perfectly
That can happen. Better try it first.
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-27-18 03:36 ET (US)     4 / 15       
Well, the problem is still there, so I submitted it to the downloads in the misc section.

The reason I do this Brugle, instead of mailing you (which IS a very kind offer, so thank you for that) is that I myself am always curious when people are talking here about a save file which I cannot see myself.

I do remain curious though what you - or others - will see in the file. As far as I can see I did not make any mistakes, but we'll have to see about that. I really think it's a bug of some kind, but I may of course have to eat my words.
jaroslav80
Pleb
posted 12-27-18 09:50 ET (US)     5 / 15       
I guess the granary near the markets has poor labour access. The markets wants to reach food supply on the first place. The granary can be full of food, but without labour access it doesn't provide it to markets. So the markets have no reason to produce buyers.
Check the sprite of granary, if there is the lift moving up and down. Or it is without lift.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-27-18 13:50 ET (US)     6 / 15       
The granary can be full of food, but without labour access it doesn't provide it to markets.
No. Market buyers will obtain food from a granary with no employees.
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-27-18 14:40 ET (US)     7 / 15       
Heh, Jaroslav80 had me there for a moment. I thought the file for some reason was already up and the comment was in relation to the file. So my first thought was "Waaaat? How on earth could I have made such an obvious mistake?? And then miss it again while I was checking what was wrong?" But then I realized that no, of course the granaries had access to labour as I provided labour specifically for the granary/warehouse part to provide foods and goods for the palace block. Also, there were three granaries and not one, AND there would've been other granaries close enough by for the market ladies to get food from if they actually wanted to. Also, that wouldn't explain why the markets I placed in already working blocks suddenly didn't produce buyers. (Plus what Brugle said, but I wasn't sure of how that worked exactly). So Pfew.

I did load the file again though, just to be sure - was starting to doubt my own sanity at that point. I let it run for a while and it seems that the markets of the underdeveloped and unstable housing block closest to where I wanted to make a palace block also stopped buying food now. I'm not sure of the markets in the other blocks though. The houses didn't devolve, but that might be because both they and their markets had more stuff stocked up already - I didn't specifically check for it.

Also a word of warning for those who do look at the file eventually: it's already in the five-year period I decided to stay in Valentia after promotion, so you won't be able to let it run for very as after a while you'll be promoted, whether you like it or not ;-)
jaroslav80
Pleb
posted 12-27-18 15:02 ET (US)     8 / 15       
I found in downloads only Pappos46 file about devolving Mediolanum. Your file will be avaliable in few days I guess.

OK, if Brugle says also granary without workers provides food to markets then my theory is wrong. I had similar problem sometimes when granary was without workers but farms didn't store food there because it was always without workers.

Maybe your granaries are in different road network as the loop where markets and tents are. Or you have just tents and markets and there is not water coverage.
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-27-18 15:38 ET (US)     9 / 15       
I found in downloads only Pappos46 file about devolving Mediolanum. Your file will be avaliable in few days I guess.
I think so :-)
OK, if Brugle says also granary without workers provides food to markets then my theory is wrong. I had similar problem sometimes when granary was without workers but farms didn't store food there because it was always without workers.
They don't store food. Same with the warehouses, as far as I'm aware. They need workers to be able to store food, not for others to buy food. Warehouses even sent out a cart pusher to 'get' food if they don't have labour. I'm not 100% sure about that though, I guess it could be they say they do but never actually deliver. I never watched them for that long as I normally try to remedy the problem of not having labour access, so I haven't been able to study their behaviour in this particular situation.
Maybe your granaries are in different road network as the loop where markets and tents are.
No, they are connected.
Or you have just tents and markets and there is not water coverage.
Again you had me for a sec there, lol. I started thinking "WHAT, did I not place the reservoir and fountains yet? And did I MISS that?" But no - without being able to check the file right now: they are large tents, so they have water access. And also, those theories again wouldn't explain why markets placed in an already working block don't sent traders as well.

I think we'll have to wait for the file to become available to download. (And now let's hope I compressed the file in the right way so other can unzip it easily, because I hadn't done that before.)
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-30-18 07:16 ET (US)     10 / 15       
*bump*

My download is up in the misc section. Does anyone see something I have missed?
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-30-18 08:23 ET (US)     11 / 15       
Does anyone see something I have missed?
Yes. I am very sorry to have not mentioned this possibility before--my memory has become awful.

The nearby wheat granary is not touched by a road. (Unlike other buildings, a granary can obtain labor access when it is touched by a gatehouse but not a road.) The markets want to get wheat, but they will only take it from a road touching a granary. Add a road tile touching the middle of a side of that granary and markets will send their buyers to that granary (and will later be sent to other places, after either they have wheat or the wheat granary is emptied).

By the way, two errors in your description in the Downloads : "the markets for some reason produced buyers but not traders" and the block is actually closer to the southern corner than the eastern corner.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 12-30-2018 @ 08:24 AM).]

Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-30-18 09:23 ET (US)     12 / 15       
Yes. I am very sorry to have not mentioned this possibility before--my memory has become awful.

The nearby wheat granary is not touched by a road. (Unlike other buildings, a granary can obtain labor access when it is touched by a gatehouse but not a road.)
Ah, YES! I see it now. Thank you! I really thought something more sinister was going on. And now that you mention it, I remember it and know I have seen it before :-o It's tricky though: the granary is completely filled, it has labour access and it works. You really need to know the more advanced game mechanics to figure this out. Which is why I come here, and thank you again for your help :-p

And I actually don't think there is something wrong with your memory, Brugle - you had no way of knowing how my block was put together and it IS a complicated game. Which is, afterall, why we love it and keep playing it.
The markets want to get wheat, but they will only take it from a road touching a granary. Add a road tile touching the middle of a side of that granary and markets will send their buyers to that granary (and will later be sent to other places, after either they have wheat or the wheat granary is emptied).
Now I also get why the market I placed in already existing blocks had the same problem: I placed them in blocks close to the 'palace' block, and for the new markets the granary filled with wheat was the closest (as the crow flies, of course.)

The other block I build (where the same kind of palace block design did work) had the granaries sort of in a triangle: three tiles of road, a 2x2 house below it, one granary above and one on either side. So that one worked, obviously.

So yeah, I'll eat my earlier words when I said I really thought it was a bug. Granaries in C3 are awful though: we're all told not to have too many intersections because the random walkers wander too much, and then we get the granary which has an intersection build in :-o. They're even worse than the entertainment venues in Pharaoh. I remember placing granaries one or two tiles from some housing and having ony one road touching, which just wouldn't get labour access because the citizen kept randomly walking insidethe granary. Often times, putting the road on another side of the granary would remedy this.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-30-18 16:06 ET (US)     13 / 15       
I actually don't think there is something wrong with your memory, Brugle
It used to be that when I said "The only reasons I can think of for ...", I would usually list all of the possibilities that we knew about. Now I generally forget something(s). Memory failure does happen to a lot of old people, but it is frustrating to know that it used to be much better.
for the new markets the granary filled with wheat was the closest
That doesn't matter. If a market is out of wheat and is connected to a granary that has wheat (and isn't too far away), the market will try to get wheat even if another food is in a closer granary.
Granaries in C3 are awful though ... even worse than the entertainment venues in Pharaoh
It is a bit troublesome, but it is possible to design cities that work fine with C3 granaries or Pharaoh entertainment venues. For example:
Heleen
Pleb
posted 12-31-18 02:54 ET (US)     14 / 15       
Memory failure does happen to a lot of old people, but it is frustrating to know that it used to be much better.
That I can understand. For what it's worth though: I still don't think that means you memory now is awful. More that it used to be better.
for the new markets the granary filled with wheat was the closest
That doesn't matter. If a market is out of wheat and is connected to a granary that has wheat (and isn't too far away), the market will try to get wheat even if another food is in a closer granary.
Wait.. then why did it happen like it did? Why didn't the market ladies simply go and get their wheat from one of the other granaries? I think it's possible that for my palace/tent block the wheat granary that missed a road tile was the only one that was close enough, but for the other markets - in the already working blocks - there must've been another one that was close enough, too. I'll have to get back to the saved game today or tomorrow I guess, to actually count tiles ;-)
It is a bit troublesome, but it is possible to design cities that work fine with C3 granaries or Pharaoh entertainment venues.
Oh, I know. I have done so often enough. But I do consider both granaries and entertainment venues one of the many curve balls the creators threw us: features in the game that can make walker behavior unpredictable and require a bit of actual experience to figure out - because no tutorial ever teaches you about it. Kept me on my toes in the Valentia block, for one thing :-o
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 12-31-18 08:26 ET (US)     15 / 15       
for the new markets the granary filled with wheat was the closest
That doesn't matter. If a market is out of wheat and is connected to a granary that has wheat (and isn't too far away), the market will try to get wheat even if another food is in a closer granary.
Wait.. then why did it happen like it did? Why didn't the market ladies simply go and get their wheat from one of the other granaries?
Sorry, my answer was unclear. It did matter that the troublesome granary was the closest (however that is determined) granary with wheat. It did not matter that there might have been a granary with a different food (but no wheat) that was closer.

Once a market has decided what it wants to get and has chosen a granary (or warehouse) to get it from, it tries to send its buyer to that granary (or warehouse). If it can't do that, its buyer doesn't go anywhere.
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